Firbush Retreats Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush. ----------- Firbush Retreat Summer 2013 Geordie Ziegler, "The Lord's Supper in the Theology of T. F. Torrance" https://tftorrance.org/firbushS2013 The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript. ------------ 00:00-00:07 on this topic and then a chapter for something else is I'm going to use some of this. 00:07-00:14 So your feedback would actually be quite helpful before I embarrass myself in front of larger crowds. 00:14-00:22 But, and yeah, I should point out my address is all about University of Aberdeen. 00:22-00:25 I'm graduating so I bought my 1495. 00:25-00:27 When was your university started? 00:27-00:30 No, which is... 00:30-00:33 Okay, which one is that? 00:33-00:36 St. Andrews? Really? 1412? 00:36-00:42 Oh man, alright, well at least we all beat out Edinburgh. 00:42-00:46 Okay, I'm not going to read the whole thing. 00:46-00:50 I'm going to skip through some parts. 00:50-00:57 So if you've read it, great. If not, hopefully it'll make some sense. 00:57-01:04 I'm going to try to draw a bit too because I think I found that I don't remember words very well, 01:04-01:09 but I remember pictures. So a picture might help as we go forward. 01:09-01:17 My concern has been for a long time that in the church when we talk about, 01:17-01:22 especially in the American church, there's a lot of language and talk about spiritual formation. 01:22-01:27 What would be an equivalent term in Britain for that kind of... 01:27-01:33 Do you talk spiritual formation or discipleship or sanctification? 01:33-01:43 They're sort of all in the same ballpark, but in a lot of seminaries and Christian training institutions in the States, 01:43-01:47 they really are emphasizing more and more spiritual formation. 01:47-01:50 They've become these centers for spiritual formation. 01:50-01:56 And the hope is that ministers will become better Christians who can help their people to become better Christians. 01:56-02:02 And that's all good, but I've questioned for a while the theological grounding underneath a lot of that. 02:02-02:08 So that's what this paper is gesturing toward. 02:08-02:13 So I contrast a thing called objective spiritual participation, 02:13-02:22 where the focus of our concern is that the Father-Son relation gets into our lives. 02:22-02:26 So it's objective because we're talking about the true God. 02:26-02:31 It's spiritual because it comes and is driven by the Holy Spirit. 02:31-02:35 And it's participation, which is really what we've been talking about here, 02:35-02:41 that we're getting in on this relation that already exists. 02:41-02:46 And I contrast that with what I call subjective moral formation, 02:46-02:58 which is pretty much what I think most forms of spiritual formation tend to boil down to. 02:58-03:03 The goal in the end in a lot of these is virtue ethics. 03:03-03:12 We know what good people are like, and we just try hard, train hard, and become those kind of people. 03:12-03:19 And we call it spiritual formation, but it's really more subjective moral formation. 03:19-03:25 Torrance, I'm on the bottom of page three if you're trying to track with the paper. 03:25-03:32 There's a few terms that we use a lot that Torrance and some others have been critical of. 03:32-03:38 Some of our language, language of things like application, applying the Bible, 03:38-03:48 applying the work of Christ to our lives, talking about Jesus as an example of an ideal that we should strive for, 03:48-03:57 describing the church as an extension of Christ's life, where we're called to bring the kingdom or to make Christ present. 03:57-04:04 Even language of growth, where sanctification is this achievement that we're supposed to strive after. 04:04-04:16 That kind of language tends to put the focus on ourselves and makes God something that we can just sort of grab and apply to ourselves. 04:16-04:27 And there's problems with that. Each in their own way relates to the living Lord in an impersonal and an objectivistic fashion. 04:27-04:39 And each in their own way implicitly ignores or actively resists the personal summons of the ascended one to obey him in faith. 04:39-04:47 So sanctification ultimately should be, is a shared thing, something that we participate in. 04:47-04:57 And if I were to give a basic flow to it, there's a movement and we see this in Christ's life, right? 04:57-05:03 His identity comes from the Father. 05:03-05:13 We see that in his baptism, which we've already talked about, and his life of faithfulness or obedience flows from that identity. 05:13-05:23 And that basic movement from identity to obedience and not the other way around is critical. 05:23-05:34 And it's a very different orientation than most ways that we think about the Christian life or that it often gets construed as. 05:34-05:45 So rather than striving, our way of participating is in peace and confidence because we have an identity that's securely grounded in the fact that we belong to Christ. 05:45-05:56 And so our call is to fix our eyes on Jesus, to pay attention to him, and as we do that, we become more like him. 05:56-06:05 Torrance calls this or he describes this like, says, "This is so new to us that it's like a cow staring at a new gate." 06:05-06:11 Which I guess if you know cows and gates, that means a lot to you. 06:11-06:17 But I take that to mean it's just don't know what to do with it. Where did this come from? 06:17-06:30 Torrance says we need to learn and learn again that salvation is by grace alone, or by grace alone is so radical that we have to rely upon Christ Jesus entirely in everything. 06:30-06:40 And that it is only when we rely on him alone that we are really free to believe not I, but Christ, yet Christ in me. 06:40-06:45 That comes from preaching Christ today. 06:45-06:55 So when we start to talk about how do we live this life, we get into the realm of ethics or moral formation. 06:55-07:04 And Torrance was nervous about talk about ethics because it comes with so many philosophical assumptions. 07:04-07:12 So he preferred to talk about godliness or Eusebia when he talked about the moral life of the Christian. 07:12-07:26 And within that understanding of godliness, every part of the Christian life, whether it's our faith or our knowledge or our prayer, our worship, our ethics, everything is either a movement of godliness or ungodliness. 07:26-07:30 So how does godliness work? 07:30-07:38 So this side, going with red, this will be the godliness side. 07:38-07:45 And this will be the ungodliness side. 07:45-07:56 And I think it was Luther, Martin Luther says that the default of the human heart is religion. 07:56-08:05 The default of the human heart is to go straight to obedience, not based on identity. 08:05-08:11 So ungodliness is also classic religion. 08:11-08:16 So how does it work? I'm on the top of page six if you're tracking with that. 08:16-08:21 How do we participate in Trinitarian participation? 08:21-08:33 If sharing in the son's relationship with the father by the spirit is to mean anything beyond a joyful confession of faith that makes sense to the head, how do we actually experience the reality? 08:33-08:41 So just to make sure that we're on the right page here, what this is embedded in is the life of the son. 08:41-08:47 So Jesus lives this life oriented toward the father. 08:47-08:51 He knows who he is. He lives that life through the spirit. 08:51-09:01 And it's that life that we are sharing and are participating on is we also live a life that is oriented toward the father. 09:01-09:08 The song, a guy named James Jordan. Anyone know that name? 09:08-09:11 He talks about that song. 09:11-09:17 When the music fades and all is stripped away. What's the title of that? 09:17-09:26 Coming Back to the Heart of Worship. I love this song, but James Jordan points out that he doesn't think Jesus would agree with it. 09:26-09:31 Because it says it's all about Jesus, but Jesus was all about the father. 09:31-09:40 So to the extent that we don't want to orient ourselves toward the father, we're actually missing the point that Jesus was pointing us toward. 09:40-09:43 So his entire life is oriented toward the father. 09:43-09:50 What he draws us into is to share in that orientation, to share in that relationship with the father. 09:50-09:56 And that has to drive our actions, not just our mindset. 09:56-10:06 So this movement of faith that we're called to corresponds to the son's filial receptivity to the father, his sonship. 10:06-10:13 And it's qualified by two primary motions, one of hearing and one of obeying. 10:13-10:26 So I'll put those down here. 10:26-10:38 So these two aspects are critical. If we look at the summary that Mark gives us of Jesus' preaching in the beginning of Mark's gospel is, 10:38-10:43 "The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe." Or, "Be repenting and be believing." 10:43-10:49 So those two core motions of being people who are always repenting or changing our thinking, 10:49-11:07 and now be believing or putting our trust and our faith in the truth, that describes the core motions of what it looks like to be people who are following in Jesus' lead. 11:07-11:25 So the hearing and repenting. Repenting is another... because if you hear, then you're going to have to repent because you're going to hear a different voice than your default voices. 11:25-11:33 So hearing, I describe three things about that. It's a combination of attentiveness, attentiveness to God. 11:33-11:43 What is he saying? What's God doing? Repentance, where we have to not just be... 11:43-11:53 Well, we have to be ready to change. We have to be prepared to orient ourselves toward him. 11:53-12:00 Not just listening to God for information, but actually with a readiness to respond. 12:00-12:12 And participating in the mind of Christ. I like the way Baxter, he threw the phrase out. He called it... what was it? Siding with Jesus? Or how do you say it? 12:12-12:14 Taking sides with Jesus. 12:14-12:21 Taking sides with Jesus. Which Torrance talks about the having the mind of Christ or taking on the mind of Christ. 12:21-12:35 And I like the activity-ness or the intentionality of taking sides with Jesus because it emphasizes that we hear, we listen to Jesus' orientation, and then we go in that direction. 12:35-12:45 We move in that direction, which is away from our own mindsets. 12:45-12:53 So as we pay attention to Jesus' communion with the Father, we learn to think and worship and serve in a God-centered way. 12:53-13:03 We learn from Jesus how to be sons and daughters of the Father. And lesson one is that we learn to abide in his love. 13:03-13:18 And it's from that secure identity as beloved children of the Father, as those who exist inside this circle of trying grace. 13:18-13:26 And it's from this place that we can learn to will his will. 13:26-13:32 Religion says, "Well, you don't need all this. You just know what God wants you to do and you just do it." 13:32-13:37 Virtue ethics says, "We know what goodness looks like, so you just go out and do it." 13:37-13:47 Torrance argues for, well, we'll get to this in a sec, but he calls it a "soteriological suspension of ethics." 13:47-13:51 Just put that on the shelf for a sec. We'll come back to that. 13:51-13:57 Because I want to just make a note about the mindsets. 13:57-14:07 Abiding in the love of God through the mind of Christ means we are not abiding in the various mindsets that contradict the life and love of God. 14:07-14:11 So when we talk about identity, this is not something... 14:11-14:18 I know for myself, and you've probably all seen this, there's bookmarks that say, you know, "Here's all of who you are in Christ." 14:18-14:22 And, you know, "I am this, I am that," and a list of all these things that you are in Christ. 14:22-14:29 And in my own experience, that list has often felt very abstract. 14:29-14:34 It's felt objective, it's felt hard to get it into my heart. 14:34-14:42 So this is a big deal. And I think we have to work through this every day. 14:42-14:44 What is our identity? 14:44-14:52 The core of it is, I think, has to be understood not just about Jesus, but about a Trinitarian identity. 14:52-14:58 We are those who are invited to share in the Son's relation with the Father through the Spirit. 14:58-15:08 We are those who are brought into that through Christ, who's lived this life for us, and now we are participating in that. 15:08-15:18 To see ourselves as oriented toward the Father through Him and with Him is the center of that mindset that we're called to. 15:18-15:26 Now when we hear from God, that word from God is both a word of judgment and of love. 15:26-15:32 Sometimes repentance means that we have to repent from something wrong and bad. 15:32-15:41 Sometimes repentance means that we need to change our thinking about something that is good and embrace it more. 15:41-15:43 It can be all kinds of things. 15:43-15:57 But to take on the mind of Christ is a constant conversion in which our independent ways of knowing are judged, healed, and reconciled to the movement of grace. 15:57-16:09 So after hearing comes obeying, and this is how we dwell in the will of God. 16:09-16:23 And the danger in obeying is that we take the knowledge that we have about God and then we try to just do things for God, rather than living from God. 16:23-16:34 So the idea here is that we only do what we hear God calling us to do, or we do what we see Jesus doing. 16:34-16:40 We don't just do things because we know that we're supposed to do things. 16:40-16:45 Jesus said that everything that He did, He did because He saw the Father doing it. 16:45-16:50 Everything He said, He said because these are the words the Father was giving Him. 16:50-17:06 Torrance's kind of tight phrase, I like it from atonement from the lectures, says, "Christian discipleship is simply the disciplined habit of thinking and acting in Christ." 17:06-17:10 It's at the bottom of page eight. 17:10-17:13 Christian discipleship is a disciplined habit. 17:13-17:32 It's staying in there, thinking and acting in Christ, living out of that identity rather than trying to do it independently. 17:32-17:36 So the real question is, what is He doing now? 17:36-17:40 How can I share in that? How can I participate in that? 17:40-17:51 Torrance talked about that everything that we would do would be an act of faith, rather than just assuming that we know what we're supposed to do. 17:51-17:55 So I'm just going to read the paragraph at the top of page 10. 17:55-18:09 His passionate concern was the personalization and the humanization of our humanity through grace, which is relational, personal, dynamic, and free. 18:09-18:18 It might look like antinomianism, which just means, it might look like He's saying, "Don't follow the law. You can do whatever you want." 18:18-18:20 It's not about that. 18:20-18:24 But He's saying the real law is Christ. 18:24-18:30 And what Christ wants is goodness, or not goodness, but you. 18:30-18:44 And so we are to be those who hear and obey, who will not always be able to determine logically in advance what it looks like to love God, or to love as God loves in a particular situation. 18:44-18:48 Because the love of God is a person, it's not a principle. 18:48-18:54 So no system or model can determine in advance what that is going to look like exactly. 18:54-19:10 And ethics, or the Christian life, is a function of Christ's presence in His ministry, which is continually operative in reconciling intervention within all the affairs of our humanity. 19:10-19:24 So what he's advocating for is a vision of our existence, of our Christian life, that's sort of encircled by the life of Christ. 19:24-19:37 His phrase is that we would live within the circle of the life of Jesus Christ, so that no sector of humanity, no realm of our experience, falls outside of His life and His love. 19:37-19:49 And so the summons to us is to be open to that gift of grace, to participate in its movement, and that movement is a movement of life and love through the Spirit, 19:49-20:03 so that we would bless all we encounter through our lives broken and poured out for the sake of the world that He loves. 20:03-20:20 And I could add more, but I think I'll stop there and just see how that sounds or what you want to talk about. 20:20-20:39 Could I just raise a slight query about your word obey? Because the word obey normally conveys a connotation of something you don't really want to do. 20:39-20:52 What you've been saying is that when we heal and change our way of thinking as we repent, then we do want to do it. So I just wanted to get to a better word. 20:52-21:06 Like follow? Follow, I'm doing. And I can see why. Jesus spoke about 'if you guide in my love and keep my commandments'. Keeping is maybe better than obey. 21:06-21:12 The word obey is we use it. It tends to have wrong connotations. 21:12-21:27 I think that's a good point. What I don't like about doing is that we can do in ways that are very disconnected from what God is saying. 21:27-21:41 Or we can do in ways that are disconnected from what God is doing. And really all of our, what was your word? You gave enough keeping? 21:41-21:48 All our keeping or following is meant to be a sharing in His ministry. 21:48-22:01 How about respond? Respond, yeah. I use the word 'doing' as a word. It doesn't mean doing what we hear. 22:01-22:09 Right. As long as we don't detach it from the hearing and the listening. 22:09-22:18 Yeah. John? I think this is simply an example of a very common problem in an age when religion to some extent is in decay. 22:18-22:27 And we all solve the world and we have to choose in every case whether we say too many bad connotations, let's do something else. 22:27-22:36 Or we say no, this is something we've got to reclaim and redeem. So we keep using it but make sure we give it a proper connotation. 22:36-22:43 Yeah. A lot of it is about context, right? Any of these words floating on their own can mean a whole lot of things. 22:43-22:51 So, can I give a contrary view? I think I like the word obey because the opposite of the word obey is to disobey. 22:51-22:57 So when you hear God you can either obey or disobey. But it doesn't seem to be any neutral position. 22:57-23:06 Whereas follow and response, you can follow or you can fail to follow. That doesn't sound as bad as disobedience. 23:06-23:14 And you can fail to respond. But that doesn't sound as bad as disobedience. So I actually like obey in that context. 23:14-23:24 Another set of words if we're throwing out words would be, since repentance is about changing your thinking, to say turn and trust. 23:24-23:31 Because really Torrance makes a big deal about that obedience without faith is disobedience. 23:31-23:39 That God doesn't want your goodness, he wants you. And so you can do something that on the surface looks really good and gets lots of accolades. 23:39-23:49 But if it's not done in faith or in trust, it's actually an act of defiance and independence, which is not what God's looking for. 23:49-23:54 So a lot of it is what do we think God wants? Do we think God just wants this? 23:54-24:03 Or do we realize that what he wants is children who are listening to him and loving him and responding to him and living out of that? 24:03-24:14 And I think a lot of spiritual formation doesn't dwell here appropriately or enough. Yeah, Kevin? 24:14-24:24 I think it's fascinating when we think of Matthew 28, this great commission, in light of all authority in heaven on earth being given to Jesus, 24:24-24:33 we are to therefore go and make disciples of all ethne. And I think it's interesting that baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and the Triune God, 24:33-24:45 and that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the issue of identity, and then teach them to obey everything that I have commanded you, or teach them to observe everything that I have commanded you. 24:45-24:51 But it's followed by our identification with the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. 24:51-24:58 And so what you're arguing for up here, I think that the passage that immediately comes to my mind is the great commission passage, 24:58-25:05 which is the passage we use frequently when talking about discipleship, but ironically we don't think in this way. 25:05-25:15 We immediately go to teach them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and we're kind of trying to figure out what to do with this sacrament of incorporation. 25:15-25:24 We're not quite sure, as evangelicals a lot of times, what to do with that. So I just wanted to point that out. I appreciated what you did up here. 25:24-25:33 I did have one clarifying question, Jory, in terms of when you put religion on the ungodliness side versus the godliness side. Could you clarify that a bit? 25:33-25:43 Sure. So this is from Martin Luther's quote where he says, "Religion is the default mode of the human heart." 25:43-25:55 And I think he's speaking about this orientation to just basically try to please God on our own rather than the way of grace. 25:55-26:05 We had the one to give a name for this. The way of grace which lives out of and is. This is an ought side. 26:05-26:15 So this side, here's how we ought to live. We all know how we ought to live. And religion tells you how you ought to live, and so you just do it. 26:15-26:23 Now the problem with living how you ought to live is we also know that we aren't what we ought to be. 26:23-26:28 So the reality of who we are is always falling short of the ought. 26:28-26:36 If you come over on the is side, it begins with this reality that this is who Jesus Christ... 26:36-26:43 Jesus is the one who is who we ought to be. He lived the life of the ought. 26:43-26:49 So the ought has already been done, and in Christ we already are that. 26:49-26:58 And so we live in the freedom of already being in Christ who we have to be as humans. 26:58-27:03 And so we ride on that. We get to share in that. Ian. 27:28-27:36 So I mean, adoption is an awesome image because you cannot... in fact, there's a book here that talks about this really well. 27:36-27:41 Which Tom will know well. 27:41-27:59 Dick DiGino's book on communion with the trying God. He points out that adoption is a Trinitarian metaphor through and through because it's the Father adopts and makes us brothers and sisters with the Son through the Spirit. 27:59-28:05 And through the Son and the Spirit we are brought into the Father's family. 28:05-28:13 And so adoption happens in... I mean, as Baxter said, I think it was here or maybe it was last night. 28:13-28:28 It happens first in the heart of God for us, but then it happens on earth in Christ actually living that life on our behalf so that we can be brought into that relation. 28:28-28:36 So all of this is a pointing toward the reality of what Christ has already done. 28:36-28:47 But adoption, I don't think we pull it out enough in the way when we talk about adoption that it really is a Trinitarian image. 28:47-28:51 David. 28:51-29:04 I sometimes use... well, I was at the top of my detection, but I try to marry the position of new birth. 29:04-29:14 In our human analogy of adoption, you've got your biological birth and then your adoptive birth, and it's legal. 29:14-29:22 And it's genuine, it may be real, but we are adopted, but we're born again. 29:22-29:31 It's a constitutional thing, which is what you're saying anyway. I know that's what you're doing. 29:31-29:40 But I think that the Bible seems to hold the two things together. We become children by new birth. 29:40-29:44 And that's how the adoption works. 29:44-29:54 Yeah. I don't know how much more to say about it. I think that's all in here. 29:54-29:56 Yeah, Andrew. 29:56-30:01 Thank you for your paper. I wonder if I might just push back on a few things. 30:01-30:03 Yeah, I want that. 30:03-30:08 To be a bit of a black sheep from my family. 30:08-30:12 Sorry about throwing your last name around. 30:12-30:19 I wonder if the language of example is that bad, or I wonder if the language of striving is necessarily that bad. 30:19-30:23 And I know there's a lot of pushback from the language of what would Jesus do. 30:23-30:26 We shouldn't be talking about that, we should be talking about what is Jesus doing. 30:26-30:29 What does it mean for me to be shaped by this reality? 30:29-30:35 But there will be days when there's something really bad that I want to do, or kind of bad that I want to do. 30:35-30:44 And all my good theology, the theology that I've been taught, will teach me that I've been praying for the coming of the Holy Spirit to transform my mind, 30:44-30:53 to make me be shaped by the mind of Christ, to really be delivered from the struggle that I'm facing, so that it's no longer a struggle. 30:53-30:57 And again and again I find that, well, the struggle's not there. 30:57-31:05 I've got the example of Jesus Christ to guide me in these difficult situations, so that I can struggle through the situation, 31:05-31:09 and struggle to obey God in this situation. 31:09-31:16 But then, after I've done that in retrospect, what would have felt like I was struggling is something that I then say, 31:16-31:23 "Yet not I." I was being helped through the struggle by the work of the Spirit in my life, 31:23-31:30 enabling me to be someone that participates in who Jesus Christ is, and shaping my identity in this way. 31:30-31:40 So it's this retrospective outlook that recognizes that through this struggle, my identity was being shaped to participate in this reality in this new way. 31:40-31:46 And I think the threat of antinomianism is actually a threat that needs to be taken much more seriously. 31:46-31:53 I think we see after Luther, in certain Lutheran traditions, there is very much a sense in which we can just relax, 31:53-32:00 because grace has done it all. And someone like, who I studied with, was confronted by that in Danish Lutheranism. 32:00-32:06 So much of the church is just saying it's all about grace, and so we can just get on with life. 32:06-32:17 Actually, we ended up with a very religious situation in which we are under this umbrella of grace, and we can just get on with how well we wanted to act. 32:17-32:23 And so, to challenge the situation, we were saying, "No, you've been much more creative about the example of Jesus Christ." 32:23-32:32 But then, by struggling to follow, by struggling to obey, we can then recognize in retrospect that we've been transformed by the work of grace in our lives. 32:32-32:40 And so, as someone who's trying to strongly participate in discipleship, I just, again, I don't know what you're going to say, 32:40-32:46 but the language of striving and example are as bad as we sometimes like to suggest. 32:46-32:52 Well, I would want to say this isn't a cakewalk at all. 32:52-33:04 This is living in the place of constant judgment and challenge and face-to-face struggle. 33:04-33:11 I think, from what you've said, I don't think that means you have to jump over to here. 33:11-33:23 I think you can live in the struggle in a place of, "Jesus, help me to think differently. Help me to... 33:23-33:28 What do I do with this pressure, this anxiety, this attitude, this anger?" 33:28-33:41 All of that, I think, is a struggle that can happen down here in a context of conversation rather than just alone. 33:41-33:52 I think that's the issue here, is when this happens alone, that's not the place we're ever meant to be. 33:52-34:05 And I think, yeah, it's a good point that the idea of a sociological suspension of ethics can be very dangerous. 34:05-34:12 Again, it does call for us to really take this struggle seriously and to not... 34:12-34:16 And I suppose you could question, "Well, can the average person really do that?" 34:16-34:22 Well, does the average person actually really need a bunch of rules and laws to live by? 34:22-34:26 Because... 34:26-34:36 And I guess I want to say, I feel like my call in the church is to help people to live here. 34:36-34:42 And I know everything in them is going to want to default here. 34:42-34:46 And kind of like your computer, if this is your default mode, the only way... 34:46-34:53 If you turn your computer on and every time you can turn it on, it goes to a certain default mode, 34:53-35:00 the only way to change that is to actually, every time you've turned it on, then to switch it to the other mode. 35:00-35:06 And I think there's points where this might become natural, 35:06-35:13 but I think every day, many times a day, we have to kind of call ourselves back to here rather than living there. 35:13-35:16 And that's a struggle too. 35:16-35:20 So I don't know if that's responding well or if I'm just evading the question. 35:20-35:22 Yeah, that was what I was going to say. 35:22-35:25 I mean, I think the language is struggling, even the language is... 35:25-35:27 I don't think it's that bad to say Jesus is an example. 35:27-35:31 It's an example that we need to follow and we need to struggle to evade sometimes. 35:31-35:33 And even asking the question, "What would Jesus do?" 35:33-35:39 I don't think it's as bad as some might like to make out. 35:39-35:45 And I'll be recognizing that when we struggle to follow God or may Jesus Christ in these ways, 35:45-35:50 in retrospect, recognize that it was God that was helping us through this situation. 35:50-35:53 Yeah. 35:53-35:55 Maybe we should do that. 35:55-35:59 Okay. Were you going to say anything about that, Tom? 35:59-36:00 Or were you going to go somewhere else? 36:00-36:07 Yes, my mind is moving on. It's similar to Andrew's there, but I have a fairly long question. 36:07-36:09 Let me cancel that and ask a very simple one. 36:09-36:17 Do we have positive things to say about spiritual disciplines and the practices of the Christian life? 36:17-36:19 Yes. 36:19-36:23 But they all live here. 36:23-36:27 If they get detached from here, then they're just more odds, 36:27-36:32 just more weight, just more pressure, just more performing. 36:32-36:39 So as long as they live here and are part of living in that identity space, 36:39-36:43 then they should be part of that reflection, too. 36:43-36:54 What is the disciplines that God is calling me to do rather than just shooting on yourself? 36:54-37:01 I think in this area there's historically a tendency to react against one side or other, 37:01-37:09 spiritual disciplines versus let go and let God, in the classic end of the 19th century debates about this. 37:09-37:16 I'm fully with you. I'm always slightly suspicious of my colleague who teaches spiritual formation. 37:16-37:17 For that field of perspective. 37:17-37:25 On the other hand, I think we need to be able to say something positive and clear about spiritual disciplines within the context of grace. 37:25-37:27 That's very important. 37:27-37:34 I think I want to say that it's through spiritual disciplines that we learn that we're able to live here, too. 37:34-37:38 If you abandoned your reading of the Bible, your prayer time, your Sabbath, 37:38-37:54 you won't have a chance of actually being a kind of person who can listen and pay attention to what God is saying or doing or calling you to do. 37:54-37:57 We should finish there. We said half past. 37:57-38:03 If you do have comments or questions, I'm sure that Jordi will be available later on. 38:03-38:11 That's been very, very helpful, very reflective and very thought provoking. Jordi, that's been great. Thank you. 38:11-38:17 Thank you. 38:17-38:21 And we're asking him now to share in our devotions. 38:21-38:31 So, yeah, slightly awkward for me to still be up here, but I'm kind of connected to this. 38:31-38:46 But without being academic about it, I was struck recently by a statement that an observation Bonhoeffer makes about the creation narrative. 38:46-38:54 And you all know the story. But in Genesis, chapter two. 38:54-39:05 Or chapter three, beginning of chapter three, you have the serpent coming to Eve and the serpent says, 39:05-39:10 "He said to the woman, 'Did God say you shall not eat from any tree in the garden?' 39:10-39:14 And the woman said to the serpent, 'We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 39:14-39:21 but God said you shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it or you shall die.' 39:21-39:30 But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not die, for God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God.'" 39:30-39:42 So they have this conversation and Bonhoeffer points out that the very nature of this conversation is showing us that something is not right. 39:42-39:49 Something is not well. He says it's the first conversation about God. 39:49-39:57 Up until that time, God was walking in the garden with them. They were having conversations with God. 39:57-40:05 But in this case, we see Eve accepting God talk over God's relationship. 40:05-40:15 And rather than being with God, we see humanity talking about God as if He's actually not present. 40:15-40:21 And yet that's what we're created for, to be in relationship and conversation with God. 40:21-40:32 We weren't created to talk about Him, but to be with Him, to live and move and have our being in Him. 40:32-40:46 There's a great phrase from a book recently came out called "Beloved Dust" where it describes prayer as being present to the God who is always present with us. 40:46-40:52 Which reminds me of the phrase Paul uses, taking every thought captive to Christ. 40:52-40:59 That all of our thinking that we would lay that before the God who is present with us. 40:59-41:07 That we would not fall into that trap of living as if we are really separate from God or distant from God or detached from God. 41:07-41:13 Or if He's not even in the room, even in the room of our hearts or in the room of our minds. 41:13-41:31 Which is really a mindset. A mindset of life on our own versus a mindset of life as a ongoing conversation with our closest friend and our closest... 41:31-41:38 Well, God's more than a friend. He's our Lord. 41:38-41:48 And the great lie of life is that you and I are on our own. And prayerlessness is forgetting who we are and the kind of drama that we're in. 41:48-41:54 That we are not on our own. That we are not isolated. We are not alone. 41:54-42:10 And so the reading I want to offer is from Galatians chapter 4. And then we'll have a prayer. 42:10-42:24 When the fullness of time had come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, in order to redeem those who were under the law so that we might receive adoption as children. 42:24-42:32 And because you are children, God has sent the spirit of His Son into our hearts crying, "Abba, Father." 42:32-42:43 So you are no longer a slave, but a child. And if you're a child, then also an heir through God. 42:43-42:56 Because you are children, God has sent the spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba, Father." 42:56-43:03 I just want to make some space now. We've had a lot of talking, so just if we could have some time of silence. 43:03-43:11 And let me invite you, encourage you to reflect on what you're feeling right now. 43:11-43:19 Maybe you're feeling energized. Maybe you're feeling just tired. Maybe you're feeling anxious about something. 43:19-43:29 Whatever you're feeling, offer that to God and let that be the beginning of a conversation and then I will draw us to a close together. 45:26-45:40 Heavenly Father, we thank you for your presence, which is always, always here closer than we are ever aware. 45:40-45:50 We thank you for your spirit inside of us and around us and calling us and leading us to turn back to you, 45:50-45:57 to remember that you are our Father, that we've been adopted into your family. 45:57-46:14 Lord, take our feelings, our emotions, our concerns, take them into your heart and take our mindsets, 46:14-46:26 whether they be about performing well or getting the stuff done that we want to get done or any mindsets we might have that are just not the mindset of Christ. 46:26-46:42 We offer those to you and ask for you to give us yours. Teach us how to just live in that peace and rest and confidence and trust that you have before the Father. 46:42-46:49 Thank you for your incredible love for us and thank you for this incredible gift, this time to gather away. 46:49-46:58 We pray you bless our continued fellowship tonight, conversation and our sleep. In Jesus' name, Amen. 47:08-47:18 Thank you very, very much, Jordi. It was great that you could come down just for the evening all the way from Banquary. 47:18-47:28 And you'll be leaving us at the crack of dawn in a kilt. You'll back up to us and walk straight into the graduation. 47:28-47:39 Thank you very, very much for producing that paper, which I have no doubt will take time to read and re-read again and really, really digest thoroughly. 47:39-47:53 I would be happy for any email correspondence or feedback. It is something I'm wanting to develop, so be hard on me. 47:53-48:02 One of the things I ask is, is everybody happy for their email address to be put on a list? If anyone's not happy, let me know. 48:02-48:12 Otherwise, I'll just send you another participant list with the emails in alphabetical order at the bottom of it so you can email people. 48:12-48:19 But if you do email somebody, then don't send it to the whole list because that just creates more spam. 48:19-48:26 What you want to do is send it to yourself and blind copy it, if you know what's meant by blind copy it. 48:26-48:29 You can copy it to everybody and then everybody else sees who's got the same list. 48:29-48:37 But if you blind copy it, BCC, then no one knows who else has got it. So that's what to do. 48:37-48:41 Now, the bar... Have you been trained, Robin? 48:41-48:42 No, not yet. 48:42-48:51 As soon as Robin's trained, the bar will be open by ten o'clock. 48:51-48:56 Some of you want to get straight back to your B&B, some haven't even signed in yet. 48:56-49:03 But we look forward to continuing the conversation with those of you who are here. 49:03-49:15 If you're B&B, then part of your day charge is that you can make your packed lunch here, but you need to be here by about nine o'clock. 49:15-49:20 There will be separate tables set aside for you and there will be a tray for you. 49:20-49:28 If you've been here before, you just make up your own packed lunch from bread and butter and a range of goodies. 49:28-49:33 Thank you very much for the first evening and see you all tomorrow. 49:33-49:36 I'll say more about the books, too, tomorrow.