Firbush Retreats Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush. ----------- Firbush Retreat Summer 2014 Discussion. Bill Steele opens, David W. Torrance and others participate. https://tftorrance.org/firbushS2014 The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript. ------------ 00:00-00:22 My understanding is, and it might be heretical, Christ's sacrifice of himself, his life in his death, are represented. 00:22-00:35 Now, that doesn't mean the ambassador represents the queen. It's represented. 00:35-00:49 So, Christ's death is represented to us from God, because the primary movement in the Holy Communion is from God to us. 00:49-01:02 But then, we represent Christ and his ongoing living sacrifice to God. 01:02-01:14 So, we are, in a sense, continuing the sacrifice of Christ. 01:14-01:20 Does that seem too un-catholic? Or do I have something in it? 01:20-01:29 Well, OK. I can offer my thoughts. 01:29-01:38 The notion of the Eucharist in terms of... understanding the Eucharist in terms of sacrifice is a very ancient and consistent Christian tradition. 01:38-01:47 The Reformers were very concerned about transubstantiation, and partly because they understood what the Catholic Church was saying, 01:47-01:52 and the Catholic Church was somewhat ambiguous about this, although now it's considerably clearer, 01:52-01:57 that the priest was sacrificing Jesus again. 01:57-02:05 And, consequently, this would be, by inference, suggesting that Christ's once-for-all sacrifice on the cross wasn't enough. 02:05-02:10 You had to keep repeating it to get it, which seemed to undermine what Hebrews, the book of Hebrews, is all about. 02:10-02:16 Now, the Catholic Church, in the catechism of the Catholic Church, is now, at least it's very clear, 02:16-02:20 Christ's death on the cross was a once-for-all sacrifice that cannot be repeated. 02:20-02:22 So, that's fundamental and non-negotiable. 02:22-02:27 If we're going to talk about Eucharist in terms of sacrifice, it's not in terms of sacrificing Jesus again. 02:27-02:32 And, of course, that's not what you're suggesting, but that's the sort of ground starting point. 02:32-02:40 So, whenever we speak of the Eucharist in terms of sacrifice, it has to be understood in terms of a means in which, 02:40-02:47 by the Holy Spirit, we're enabled to participate in that once-for-all sacrifice, so that it becomes a present reality to us. 02:47-02:51 It's not that we're having to do it again and supplement it because it wasn't enough. 02:51-02:54 So, that's the sort of key starting point. 02:54-03:01 Now, you then might want to say, is Christ's sacrifice then in some way ongoing? 03:01-03:10 I think I want to say not in the sense that it wasn't accomplished back then. 03:10-03:12 So, it was done and it was finished. 03:12-03:22 So, if there is a sense in which it's ongoing, it's only in the sense that we participate in the ongoing, 03:22-03:24 in that finished work. 03:24-03:29 I think that's all I could, that's all I have popped into my head if anyone had anything else to add to that. 03:29-03:34 Yes, I'm waiting for your mic, but do you want to follow up on that? 03:34-03:36 Could you speak to that? 03:36-03:40 In the early Church, how did you do it? 03:40-03:42 How did you do it? It was quite creative, peaceful. 03:42-03:45 Can you speak up as much as you can? 03:45-03:51 In the very early Church, the communion was a feast of the resurrection. 03:51-04:00 It passed over very quickly in the medieval doctrine of the Mass and the memorial of the death of Christ. 04:00-04:04 That was the whole emphasis, all that went with it. 04:04-04:13 Calvin resurrected, that's the right word, rediscovered the resurrection and it's very strong in Calvin. 04:13-04:22 But in practice, to me, the Church, when I think of Scotland, the way the communion has been basically celebrated in Scotland, 04:22-04:28 it's been a feast which is for the memorial of the death of Christ. 04:28-04:34 We've lost a great sense that it's a feast of the resurrection. 04:34-04:43 And to me the great value of the Vatican Council of Truth is that they have rediscovered the resurrection, 04:43-04:49 introduced it into their service, so that in practice it's no longer the Mass. 04:49-04:53 In discussing it with the mid-catholics, I teased them at that point and said, 04:53-04:56 "You still keep the term Mass?" 04:56-05:04 They said, "Yes, but think of, if you know that the Roman Catholic Missal was back in 1969 published, 05:04-05:09 'Christ has died, Christ has risen, we have risen.' 05:09-05:14 The whole congregation said, 'Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ has come again.' 05:14-05:21 Very moving. I failed to see that in much of our celebrations, Scotland. 05:21-05:25 Yes, we remember the death, but the resurrection. 05:25-05:32 Now how in practice would you say that we should go about recovering the doctrine of the resurrection? 05:32-05:36 I think it's very important. 05:36-05:41 How would we recover the doctrine of the resurrection? Yeah, good question. 05:41-05:49 Well, I mean, OK, let me slightly broaden that. 05:49-05:56 I, for a couple of years in this charismatic church I was part of, when I complained about 05:56-06:03 why do we never do the Eucharist, they said, "Well, OK, why don't you organize some Eucharistic services 06:03-06:06 once a month in an evening for anyone who wants to go?" 06:06-06:11 So I did for a couple of years before I moved out to a different church plant. 06:11-06:19 And what I did is I wrote for each one a different Eucharistic liturgy. 06:19-06:25 And each time, so all that stuff, well I went through with creation for... 06:25-06:30 through to new creation, including resurrection, each time I took a different focus. 06:30-06:35 And so I wanted to have all of that stuff there, but I wanted the Eucharist to be a means by which 06:35-06:38 in this particular service we're going to think about creation. 06:38-06:44 We're going to look at Eucharist as how the death, resurrection of Christ links us through 06:44-06:47 in Eucharistic ways to the whole creation of things. 06:47-06:50 And then we did the suffering church and we did all sorts of things. 06:50-06:54 Because the Eucharist has massive potential to engage us in different ways, 06:54-07:00 rather than just let's think about Jesus dying for us, with all of these things. 07:00-07:05 And so I deliberately wrote prayers and sculpted the whole service around that, 07:05-07:13 including resurrection, by writing Eucharistic prayers and things that picked out those themes. 07:13-07:17 Of course that wouldn't necessarily... 07:17-07:23 Well okay, it has to start by a recovery of theology of the Eucharist. 07:23-07:30 It has to start by people who lead worship and lead Eucharistic services 07:30-07:36 understanding all this stuff as to how the Eucharist connects to resurrection and so on. 07:36-07:41 And once people get that and see the connection, then ways open up for how you can 07:41-07:46 craft services to bring out those kind of emphases, in terms of the songs you choose 07:46-07:51 and the prayers you pray around it. 07:51-07:57 And if you have a church that uses set liturgies, then you might want to try and find ways of 07:57-08:02 sneaking in ones regularly that make the resurrection connection. 08:02-08:05 Can I follow that with a question? 08:05-08:12 We have taken in our liturgy, written into our church's gotten liturgy, 08:12-08:17 that when we celebrate communion, we read the passage of 1st Corinthians 11, 08:17-08:20 the events of the last night. 08:20-08:24 And it seems to me that that is only half communion. 08:24-08:29 It's events of what happened on the evening of the day of resurrection, 08:29-08:35 that when Christ was risen, he said peace, the fruits of what he had accomplished, 08:35-08:37 and we condition them. 08:37-08:43 It always seems to me that those two events together constitute our sacrament. 08:43-08:49 And we have only concentrated the month, and therefore it's a memorial of the death of Christ. 08:49-08:53 I think there's something basically lacking in the church. 08:53-08:56 That's a very helpful table, but I'd never thought of that. 08:56-08:59 Oh, sorry. Is that? Okay. 08:59-09:04 Two things. One is about the actual communion service itself. 09:04-09:08 If we take it traditionally, bread and wine. 09:08-09:13 In my placement I was on, there was a worship committee and they were talking about the Eucharist, 09:13-09:17 but they were talking about exclusion of people, so people who don't partake of alcohol, 09:17-09:20 or maybe alcoholics, so it's grape juice, okay. 09:20-09:24 A colleague at New College went to a couple of years ago, to the Iona community, 09:24-09:29 she told me there, had a Eucharistic service with croissants and hot chocolate. 09:29-09:31 Is that Eucharist? 09:31-09:37 And also celiac or people who may have wheat intolerance, so that's one part. 09:37-09:42 But another part I was interested in, kind of separate question, was the ecclesiology you talked about. 09:42-09:47 Now Professor Norman Wurtsper, Professor at Duke University, 09:47-09:52 talks about Eucharistic, living in a Eucharistic manner. 09:52-09:58 So in some way the Eucharist is consumption, consumption of the blood and body of Christ, 09:58-10:04 but in our daily lives we consume, we consume food, petrol, TV, media, 10:04-10:12 and so the Eucharistic, you talked about the church embracing the Eucharist in its whole life. 10:12-10:18 Is that how we should be approaching the Eucharist, not just as one meal in church, 10:18-10:21 though it clearly is at a particular point in time, 10:21-10:24 but it should be an embodiment of the way we lead our lives 10:24-10:29 and approach the consumption and living our lives on this planet. 10:29-10:34 Okay, two separate questions, both interesting. 10:34-10:38 Right, so can hot chocolate and croissants be... 10:38-10:40 Eucharist. 10:40-10:42 I don't like the idea. 10:42-10:44 No, not do I. 10:44-10:51 There is a natural connection between, say, wine and the blood of Christ. 10:51-10:56 I mean, you don't have to explain it to anyone, it looks like blood, hot chocolate doesn't. 10:56-11:04 And there is a danger then of, if you do it like this, it's kind of quirky and novel and, 11:04-11:07 oh, isn't that cute, but... 11:07-11:09 What about grape juice? 11:09-11:13 No, grape juice is fine, I think. I don't see a problem with that. 11:13-11:16 I don't see any reason why it has to be fermented, 11:16-11:19 particularly as that could be a real stumbling block for people, 11:19-11:24 but I can't think of anybody who wouldn't be able to drink some red-coloured liquid. 11:24-11:28 Substituting it for something that... 11:28-11:34 Well, hot chocolate is this major danger of, first of all, being a serious distraction. 11:34-11:40 So instead of it becoming a means through which, like a window, 11:40-11:48 through which we look to the divine, we look at the window itself rather than through it. 11:48-11:53 And you just become so distracted with this hot chocolate that you don't actually... 11:53-11:54 So it doesn't help. 11:54-11:59 And it's in danger of trivialising something that's not remotely trivial. 11:59-12:05 So I can't see how that would help people at all. 12:05-12:10 I mean, again, with wheat intolerance, I'm sure there are ways around... 12:10-12:13 Celiacs bring the wood, right? 12:13-12:16 You know, a stove, a cool world. 12:16-12:24 So we need, you know, there are ways around it that should not exclude anybody. 12:24-12:26 The other question was interesting. 12:26-12:29 I don't agree with people who say... 12:29-12:32 So a lot of people I know tell me, "Well, every meal is a Eucharist. 12:32-12:34 "Every time you have a meal together, that's a Eucharist." 12:34-12:36 I don't think that's right. 12:36-12:43 However, I do think it's right that Eucharists should teach us to live Eucharistically in the world, 12:43-12:45 and we might want to think what it is to live Eucharistically. 12:45-12:53 And some of the stuff I said, I mean, is to embody that those kind of patterns of living, 12:53-13:02 cruciform, Christ kinds of living, those, I think, would be Eucharistic ways of living in the world. 13:02-13:06 And so the Eucharist then should shape the way we engage the whole of life. 13:06-13:17 I wasn't entirely sure what you were saying about making the analogy between consuming the bread and consumerism. 13:17-13:19 I mean, what was the...? 13:19-13:25 That in the Eucharist we consume the body and blood of Christ. 13:25-13:31 In our daily lives we are also involved in consumption all the time. 13:31-13:37 So it's having that link between the Eucharist, in the way you're saying, 13:37-13:40 having a Eucharistic manner in living your life. 13:40-13:46 So we consume resources of our planet, God-given, created resources. 13:46-13:55 But often we do them in... we consume in our planet in a human realm, in human reasoning, 13:55-13:58 without recourse to God's creation. 13:58-14:00 OK, I see what you're saying. So that's interesting. 14:00-14:01 I have to think about that. 14:01-14:11 So the line of thought would be that the Eucharist might help us to learn Eucharistic ways of consuming 14:11-14:13 that are not consumerist. 14:13-14:14 Correct. 14:14-14:15 Is that right? 14:15-14:19 That would be an interesting avenue to explore. 14:19-14:20 Yeah? 14:20-14:23 I was just going to pick back on David's comment in the sense that... 14:23-14:27 I guess maybe with a question about the liturgies that we use for Eucharist in some ways, 14:27-14:31 because I've only ever really heard the bit that maybe from Corinthians where Paul talks about, 14:31-14:35 it was received to me that on such and such a day... I mean, that's great, 14:35-14:39 but the passages you introduced at the beginning of 1 Corinthians and John, 14:39-14:42 I've never heard in a Eucharistic liturgy, 14:42-14:47 but the things that kind of expand on what's happening in the celebration of the Lord's Supper. 14:47-14:55 Do you find that there might be something we could change about the liturgy itself in a way that... 14:55-14:58 I mean, it's kind of a big step to do such things, 14:58-15:00 because the Church has done it for quite some time in a particular way, 15:00-15:03 but maybe it hasn't been good enough. 15:03-15:05 Yeah, and it depends on your liturgy. 15:05-15:09 I mean, if you are in a Tzwinglian church, you'd never see John 6, 15:09-15:13 because John 6 says everything they don't want to be about the Eucharist, 15:13-15:17 so they will argue backwards that it's got nothing to do with the Eucharist. 15:17-15:21 Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't want to see 1 Corinthians disappear. 15:21-15:24 I mean, it's a really key text, 15:24-15:29 and I think it should be, if not in every Eucharist, it should be in a lot of them, 15:29-15:35 but I think there's a whole bunch of other texts that could be brought into play 15:35-15:39 that bring out what's there. 15:39-15:43 So I think the thing is, what we really need to help people to do is what I said, 15:43-15:46 is not to see new landscapes. 15:46-15:49 What's the next thing? What's the next move of God? 15:49-15:56 Well, actually, what God's already given us is actually just amazing, 15:56-16:02 and we're looking, "Oh, no, we've done that. That's boring. Let's find something new." 16:02-16:05 Let's just look at what God's given us, but look with new eyes, 16:05-16:07 because there's just so much more in it, 16:07-16:10 and maybe the next move of God is the one that's already happened, 16:10-16:12 you just missed it. Look again. 16:12-16:14 David. 16:14-16:18 I just want to mention about other passages. 16:18-16:25 The John 6 passage, it seems to me that that's not given necessarily the emphasis sometimes, 16:25-16:34 which it could be, there are distinct cannibalistic overtones in that, 16:34-16:39 and it's quite clear from the context that many people stopped walking with him 16:39-16:43 because of what he was saying, and it really was quite challenging. 16:43-16:48 In a different context, I remember someone asked me the question, 16:48-16:51 "Well, why do cannibals eat people?" 16:51-16:59 Which is a very good question, and it's not because they're hungry, mainly. 16:59-17:02 It's because they want their traits. 17:02-17:09 You want to consume and take into yourself if you see power or strength or virility, 17:09-17:12 and so they'll drink the blood of a lion or some animal that they've killed. 17:12-17:18 I mean, if you're bald, slightly mentally deranged with a gammy leg, 17:18-17:24 you want that slightly to end up in the pot, because of that. 17:24-17:37 But there is a real taking into ourselves of the body and the soul, the blood. 17:37-17:42 It treats me that it's not his soul and spirit, I mean, he does give spirit obviously, 17:42-17:55 but it's body. And 1 Corinthians 6, our bodies are members of him. 17:55-18:02 No, that's very interesting. And of course the blood, which in Leviticus 17.11 is it, 18:02-18:07 the life is in the blood. So the blood is like the life. 18:07-18:12 I know, and of course that was what came out in the previous... 18:12-18:20 You mentioned that right at the beginning, in your thing about... 18:20-18:29 what was the word... the concern about the physical and the bodily. 18:29-18:35 I really do think you're absolutely spot on that we struggle with that. 18:35-18:39 And we've got the same issue when it comes to scripture, 18:39-18:44 we tend to think it's word, but God has not just given us words, he's given us words. 18:44-18:52 In John 17, the Logos, but I've given them the rhema you gave me to say, 18:52-19:00 and this idea that God should be actively engaged in the political international situation, 19:00-19:10 the fact that Israel, these are things that we struggle with as a church. 19:10-19:14 Yeah, we do. We do struggle with the whole notion of embodiment, 19:14-19:18 and because we've had this notion that being spiritual is somehow not. 19:18-19:23 And this is one of the things I've appreciated from the sort of Catholic sacramentalist view 19:23-19:29 of the whole created order, that the whole created order can mediate the divine, 19:29-19:33 because the physical is not somehow remote from God. 19:33-19:39 I mean, of course, it's not identical with God, you can't collapse God into creation, as Bob said. 19:39-19:45 But nevertheless, God encounters us in this physical stuff. 19:45-19:49 And that's one of the things I think, you know, that's one of the reasons I think 19:49-19:53 we find it difficult with communion, but actually, rather than trying to sideline that, 19:53-19:58 we let's bring that out and say, hey, let's let communion change the whole way 19:58-20:03 we think about the physical world, and the goodness of creation and incarnation. 20:03-20:07 I mean, all of these things are just so fundamental to a Christian worldview. 20:07-20:14 Communion can actually slap us around the face and stop us from getting all airy-fairy 20:14-20:24 and getting down and itty-gritty, whatever, with the world that God's made in which we inhabit. 20:24-20:32 Just picking up on one or two things, I would agree very, very much with David Torrance 20:32-20:38 that they, certainly in the Reformed view, it's the Lord's Supper, the Putting Together, 20:38-20:42 the Last Supper and the Mail and the Resurrection Day. 20:42-20:45 And it's always seemed to me, remember Jesus says, 20:45-20:50 how much he has longed to eat the Passover, and he wouldn't eat again of the fruit of the vine 20:50-20:53 until he eats afresh in the kingdom. 20:53-21:01 Well, to me, the kingdom came with his resurrection. That was the dawning of the day. 21:01-21:06 So to me, he is eating already then, and it's the risen Lord. 21:06-21:16 And then to pick up on Bill's point about what's the relation between the offering that we make in Christ. 21:16-21:25 I think it's very important that Christ, he is the only celebrant, he is the only offering. 21:25-21:31 He continually presents himself to the Father. Not that he has to do it all over again, 21:31-21:36 but simply he stands there with his once and for all, presenting himself 21:36-21:41 and presenting our response for us continually. 21:41-21:48 So our presentation is just recognising that, holding up before God, saying Amen to that. 21:48-21:53 And that is our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving in Hebrews. 21:53-22:02 And then on the spiritual bit, I would just say there's no such thing as a spirit world. 22:02-22:08 Spirituality is a myth, in the sense of a separate thing from the physical world. 22:08-22:14 There only is this physical world, there only is body. Only God is spirit. 22:14-22:20 And everything else is mythology. There's no supernatural invisible spiritual world. 22:20-22:28 There's only this physical world and God. But this physical world is unbelievably rich. 22:28-22:36 We looked at it in a wooden mechanistic sense, in which matter is just matter, it's dead. 22:36-22:41 But matter is the living, wonderful matter of the kind that can actually know God. 22:41-22:46 So we have to redefine our whole understanding of matter, it's no longer dead matter. 22:46-22:52 So we've spiritualised the spiritual world and we've dematerialised the physical world. 22:52-23:02 And both have suffered. So what I would say is that the only two realities are God and the physical bodily world. 23:02-23:07 But God has made the bodily world in such a way that we are made for communion with God. 23:07-23:14 And I would say when we know God, then we are spiritual. We become spiritual. 23:14-23:20 But there's no such thing as a spiritual world or a spirit separate from the body. 23:20-23:26 I think you just talked yourself into the theme for a future conference. 23:26-23:29 There's a lot of questions coming up here. 23:29-23:33 Bob articulated mine much better than I would have done. 23:33-23:35 Alright. 23:35-23:42 This morning we've been challenged to think about what elements do we need to try and recover in worship. 23:42-23:52 Robin, what would you say to the idea that worship should engage or use all our senses beyond just hearing but seeing and smelling? 23:52-24:00 And would the Eucharist be able to be worshipful by engaging taste and touch then in that way? 24:00-24:06 Do you think that's a role that as church leaders we need to think about in years to come? 24:06-24:13 Or the role of engaging all the senses in worship and touch and taste being part of that? 24:13-24:16 I do. 24:16-24:24 I'm not wanting to disagree with what Bob was saying earlier in terms of priority of word. 24:24-24:30 And with visual being, if not on a par or a very clear second. 24:30-24:38 But one of the things about the Eucharist is that it's not just that as well. It's touch and taste and smell. 24:38-24:49 And as what I was saying yesterday, I'm very attracted to this idea from Gregory of Nyssa that the physical senses, even those fairly base ones, 24:49-25:01 you know we might think of them as fairly base, can if they're properly trained in worship become a means through which we perceive something of the truth of God. 25:01-25:13 And so I think it's a good thing to remind people that it's not that they have to shut out that kind of stuff when they worship. 25:13-25:20 But that's actually part of it. The enjoyment of those things is a part of it. 25:20-25:24 And so if we could creatively think of ways of bringing that out. 25:24-25:30 I mean it's never going to be the case that Christian worship becomes primarily about tasting things. 25:30-25:37 But it would be interesting to explore that maybe there's a lot more to be said for taste in worship. 25:37-25:39 Taste and see that the Lord is good. 25:39-25:44 Obviously it's a metaphor. It's about experientially engaging with God and seeing that he's good. 25:44-25:53 But the fact that it can be picked up so easily as a metaphor suggests that there's maybe more we can do with it. 25:53-25:55 Yeah. 25:55-26:05 I was going to ask, you mentioned at the end of your talk that Eucharist should be a sanctifying sacrament. 26:05-26:09 Would you see it as healing? 26:09-26:21 And there are traditions that emphasize bodily healing as part of the sacrament. 26:21-26:32 Yes, very much so. So healing, first of all, and in various possible ways, it's in terms of forgiveness. 26:32-26:38 And was it you that was, somebody was saying yesterday, was it David? Oh, it was David. 26:38-26:47 This woman who was really, through unforgiveness of her parents, was not in a position, she was ill. 26:47-26:51 And through releasing them in forgiveness, she herself received healing. 26:51-27:01 And so at that level, the Eucharist is a means of receiving forgiveness but also something that draws forgiveness out from us. 27:01-27:04 And in doing that can be a means of healing. 27:04-27:11 But also in this idea in which participating in the Eucharist becomes a means of taking the life of Christ within us 27:11-27:19 and anticipating the resurrection of the body, that it can then be a means through which God ministers physical healing 27:19-27:23 as an anticipation of the resurrection of the body. 27:23-27:30 Yeah, so at those and more levels, it could be a sacrament of healing. 27:30-27:35 I mean, the thing is, that's why I say it's not just one sacrament among others. 27:35-27:41 I mean, it's like a hub at the centre of a wheel where the whole biblical story and the whole community of God, 27:41-27:44 everything sort of feeds into this. 27:44-27:53 And so the ways in which it can shape church and equip church to live gospel ways is, 27:53-28:00 gosh, I mean, you could spend years reflecting on how different ways that could work out. 28:02-28:12 To follow up on what Bob said, in the Christiiform church there's a rejection of the spiritual-natural distinction. 28:12-28:17 The distinction we make is the creator and the creation. 28:17-28:22 And the creation includes all things visible and invisible. 28:22-28:25 So angels, demons. 28:28-28:33 I just wanted to follow up on what you said by seeing that. 28:33-28:44 I think this could run and run, but can we just focus back down on the Eucharist? 28:44-28:49 Are there any more questions to Robin on this? 28:49-28:55 So you talked about Calvin's interpretation of the Eucharist being something on which we feed on Christ spiritually, 28:55-29:00 but not in a physical sense, but then at the same time he's talking about doing that while we're eating something. 29:00-29:07 So I guess I'm not really, I don't really understand what is the holdup in some regards with the physical participation 29:07-29:10 in our partaking of the body and blood of Christ. 29:10-29:15 I mean, obviously nobody's making the argument that it's chemically turning into the body and blood of Christ, 29:15-29:18 even Thomas Aquinas wasn't really saying that. 29:18-29:23 So I don't really know, I mean, I'd love to hear your thoughts. 29:23-29:35 Okay, yeah. So what I think Calvin wants to avoid is the notion that this is physically turning into the body and blood of Christ, 29:35-29:41 which is what he understandably thinks and maybe really was, 29:41-29:44 what was understood to be going on in transubstantiation. 29:44-29:48 Not that it looked like the body and blood of Christ, but in terms of its substance, 29:48-29:51 and this is not the kind of metaphysics we generally use now, 29:51-29:54 although I actually think it's got more going for it than people think, but anyway. 29:54-29:58 We don't tend to think in terms of substance and accidents and so on, but they did then, 29:58-30:04 and so this really literally was, I mean, maybe not chemically, 30:04-30:08 but again that's sort of how we would tend to analyse substance. 30:08-30:13 This really literally was in terms of its metaphysical substance, the body and blood of Christ, 30:13-30:18 and Calvin thought that would have been cannibalism and that would have been problematic. 30:18-30:28 But he's not against, but he's not wanting to say there's not a real important physical aspect of eating this, 30:28-30:36 and it's precisely through this physical eating, as the Spirit enables, that we share in Christ. 30:36-30:40 But I think what he's trying to get at is whatever that is, this spiritual union, 30:40-30:45 which is mediated through this physical act of eating, it's not somehow, you can't pull them apart. 30:45-30:52 Whatever it is, it's not literally eating the physical body of Christ, which would be cannibalism. 30:52-30:58 I think that's, and so a Catholic today would go, okay, but that's not really what we're trying to say anyway, 30:58-31:04 and so maybe there's a lot more room for agreement now than there would have been back then. 31:04-31:06 That's fair, thank you. 31:06-31:08 Last question. 31:08-31:09 Take the last question. 31:09-31:18 Robin, I wanted to ask you, on what you said as far as certain traditions where the Eucharist is hardly ever celebrated 31:18-31:22 and the need for us to get this more central, 31:22-31:31 is there also a danger of incorporating into our Eucharistic practices or Eucharistic liturgies 31:31-31:37 so many different elements that are not necessarily in the Scriptures that, 31:37-31:44 I'll give you an example. For example, in Justin Martyr's Apology or the Apostolic Constitutions or the widest document, 31:44-31:51 you get, for example, traditions such as mixing water with wine and all the symbolism that's associated with that, 31:51-31:54 and then there's kind of a renewal of people saying we need to do that. 31:54-32:00 And yet there's no scriptural, what I'd say, mandate to do that, 32:00-32:04 and it starts to depart in a completely different direction, 32:04-32:08 I think maybe from its simplicity of what Christ intended. 32:08-32:14 Any thoughts just on that whole issue where we can make things more complicated, 32:14-32:18 potentially, in our Eucharistic practices than we really need to? 32:18-32:24 Only that I have no problem with people mixing water with wine and stuff, 32:24-32:30 but I can't see how it could be anything other than something you... 32:30-32:32 It's a delusion to baptism. 32:32-32:36 Yeah, but I wouldn't say you have to do it, you know, 32:36-32:41 because it's clearly not essential to the act of the Holy Communion. 32:41-32:47 But it can serve a very helpful function, but it's not essential. 32:47-32:53 But it is an allusion to the water as well as the blood flow, you can say. 32:53-32:59 Yes, so like I say, I have no problem with it, and I think it can serve a helpful role, 32:59-33:03 so long as the meaning is made clear for people. 33:03-33:08 But I don't think it can be... You can't say, "You have to do it, it's essential, 33:08-33:10 it's not really communion if you don't do it." 33:10-33:14 I don't think it unnecessarily complicates... 33:14-33:18 I don't see many things that happen... 33:18-33:21 OK, there's lots of things that happen in Eucharistic liturgies that aren't in the Bible. 33:21-33:25 I mean, the Bible is incredibly sparse in terms of what really went on, 33:25-33:30 and clearly the Church has developed all sorts of practices and things around the Eucharist. 33:30-33:39 So for me the criteria would be, do those things serve to help the people of God 33:39-33:46 engage with Christ in proper Eucharistic ways in this meal? 33:46-33:50 And if they do, I don't... Great, go for it. 33:50-33:54 If they are somehow distracting from that or undermining any of that, 33:54-33:57 then get rid of them. 33:57-33:59 That's the only thing. 33:59-34:04 I would want to leave people with a fair amount of freedom as to how they did stuff. 34:04-34:07 One of the ways in which the Eucharist can be renewed, I think, 34:07-34:10 is to allow people imaginative scope. 34:10-34:15 If they're immersed in the theological ways and the tradition and how it works, 34:15-34:19 you can then innovate within that tradition 34:19-34:26 in ways that can be really Spirit-guided and refreshing and renewing, 34:26-34:32 that would be just deeply true to the tradition, even if they're very innovative. 34:32-34:34 But if you're doing stuff... 34:34-34:39 If you don't understand the tradition and you just start doing stupid stuff like drinking hot chocolate, 34:39-34:45 that's just not helping anyone, at least of all the people of God, 34:45-34:51 to take seriously what it means to share in Christ's sufferings of Christ and so on. 34:51-34:54 It's just... That's my thought. 34:55-34:58 We have to unfortunately come to an end. 34:58-35:04 Before we do so, and before we thank Robin, I just wanted to take up one point...