Firbush Retreats Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush. ----------- Nov 13, 2015 Firbush Retreat Fall 2015 Robin Brodie, "Congregational Participation, II" https://tftorrance.org/firbushF2015 The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript. ------------ 00:00-00:11 So yeah, this is part two, I suppose, really, of the talk about congregational participation. 00:11-00:17 And yesterday we looked at the kind of some practical difficulties with the one-man ministry 00:17-00:25 and some thoughts about what would be positive about the full-body ministry of the church 00:25-00:29 with everybody playing their part and the whole body being built up together, particularly 00:29-00:35 based on the 1 Corinthians 12 passage which we read together. 00:35-00:41 I've been studying with Neil Mayer who came and talked here, I think it was last summer. 00:41-00:48 He's a young, 40-year-old or so, minister from South Africa who had been in the Presbyterian 00:48-00:51 church in South Africa for a number of years. 00:51-00:55 And then God called him to come over to Scotland and minister in Scotland. 00:55-01:00 And he came over with his wife, Michelle, and their two girls who are sort of 9 and 01:00-01:03 11, and retrained in Scotland for about six months. 01:03-01:08 And then he was almost immediately called to Kintore, a small village, small town just 01:08-01:10 outside of Aberdeen. 01:10-01:15 And he's now a minister there and seems to be doing a really good job sort of revolutionizing 01:15-01:16 that church. 01:16-01:22 And so every month for the last year and a half or so we've been studying atonement together. 01:22-01:24 We study a chapter every month. 01:24-01:30 And we just had come to the chapter, the long chapter 11, on the one church of God and Jesus 01:30-01:32 Christ over the last month. 01:32-01:37 So it was actually very fortuitous for me because I was able to then remember what Torrance 01:37-01:39 said about the church. 01:39-01:43 And as I said yesterday, reading it initially didn't seem that he addressed directly the 01:43-01:47 practical matters of congregational participation. 01:47-01:53 But on closer inspection, we saw that he had such a comprehensive view of the church that 01:53-01:58 it's clear that he would not have contemplated for one moment that the true nature or purpose 01:58-02:06 of the church could be reflected or achieved other than by congregational participation. 02:06-02:09 So then I thought, well, I'll go back into the chapter I've just been studying with him 02:09-02:13 and look at what he said. 02:13-02:17 So the first area I looked at was Trinitarian theology. 02:17-02:28 And it seemed to me that the relational, self-giving, sacrificial love at the heart of the mutual 02:28-02:33 indwelling of the Trinity was absolutely relevant here. 02:33-02:39 And let me just read from Baxter Kruger's book his definition of perichoresis, which 02:39-02:42 is this perichoresis, which is this mutual indwelling. 02:42-02:46 I thought it was a lovely description of what perichoresis is, what the mutual indwelling 02:46-02:50 between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is all about. 02:50-02:59 He says, "Genuine acceptance removes fear and hiding and creates freedom to know and 02:59-03:01 to be known. 03:01-03:09 In this freedom arises a fellowship and a sharing so honest and open and real that the 03:09-03:13 persons involved dwell in one another. 03:13-03:17 There is union without loss of individual identity. 03:17-03:21 When one weeps, the other tastes salt." 03:21-03:28 It's only in the triune relationship of Father, Son, and Spirit that personal relationship 03:28-03:30 of this order exists. 03:30-03:35 And the early church used the word perichoresis to describe it. 03:35-03:42 The good news is that Jesus Christ has drawn us within this relationship, and its fullness 03:42-03:47 and life are to be played out in each of us and in all creation. 03:47-03:51 So the good news is that Jesus Christ has drawn us within this amazing relationship, 03:51-03:54 and its fullness and life are to be played out in each of us. 03:54-03:59 And I would dare say there, and in our churches and in all creation. 03:59-04:06 So I don't often hear people talking about this perichoresis as being the basis of church 04:06-04:07 life. 04:07-04:12 Yet, if we're saying that at the very start of the universe, there was this amazing mutual 04:12-04:17 indwelling between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, this self-giving love, then surely 04:17-04:22 that should be the basis of all our churches and of all our relationships. 04:22-04:27 So I'm saying here similarly, congregational participation is based on and reflects this 04:27-04:32 kind of relational approach to ministry in all of our church life. 04:32-04:36 This kind of love would cover a multitude of differences in a congregation. 04:36-04:41 I think perhaps we need to go back to Trinitarian theology as a basis for church life. 04:41-04:43 Let me just pick up on some of the passages now. 04:43-04:45 We're going to look at the quote sheet. 04:45-04:49 And to do with Trinitarian theology, two quotes. 04:49-04:52 I've just given the page numbers in case you're interested in looking up the atonement book 04:52-04:53 afterwards. 04:53-05:01 First of all, the church derives from the eternal purpose of God to create humankind 05:01-05:08 and to share with them the life and the love which he has within himself as Father, Son, 05:08-05:09 and Holy Spirit. 05:09-05:16 Thus, the church owes its existence solely to the grace of God and lives only through 05:16-05:20 the faithfulness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 05:20-05:26 So TFT is absolutely basing the church's life and existence on the eternal purpose of God 05:26-05:30 to create humankind and to share with them-- that's the important point-- to share with 05:30-05:36 them the life and love which he has within himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 05:36-05:40 Purpose of the church is to be sharing in the love in the Trinity. 05:40-05:41 And then the next quote. 05:41-05:47 Thus, the mystery of the church's being is grounded in a threefold communion. 05:47-05:53 Antecedent or before everything is the eternal communion of the Father, the Son, and the 05:53-05:54 Holy Spirit. 05:54-06:01 That is the love that God is eternally in himself, the consubstantial communion of the 06:01-06:04 Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. 06:04-06:10 That love has been poured out for us and embodied in Jesus Christ, the beloved Son. 06:10-06:15 It is that same love-- that's the love of the Trinity-- mediated by the atonement that 06:15-06:19 is poured out by the Spirit within the church. 06:19-06:24 For through the communion of the Spirit, the church partakes of the oneness of the Father 06:24-06:31 and the Son in Jesus Christ and is constituted in itself the community of love on earth in 06:31-06:35 whose midst God himself dwells. 06:35-06:41 So Torrance absolutely situates the church within the community of love between the Father, 06:41-06:42 the Son, and the Spirit. 06:42-06:47 And I don't hear people preaching that or talking about that at all. 06:47-06:56 Secondly, incarnational theology-- as Christ humbled himself and took the form of a servant 06:56-07:01 and washed the disciples' feet, and as he shared his ministry with the disciples while 07:01-07:06 on earth-- he sent them out, the Seventy and so on-- so all in the church are called to 07:06-07:09 serve and to go out in mission. 07:09-07:14 Two passages about that. 07:14-07:17 The church is the universal family. 07:17-07:20 So immediately Torrance is talking about the family. 07:20-07:23 It's not one person, it's not a one-man ministry. 07:23-07:28 The church is the universal family of God, the Father, sharing the brotherhood with Jesus 07:28-07:32 Christ and therefore sharing with him sonship to the Father. 07:32-07:36 So we're allowed to share in his very sonship with the Father. 07:36-07:40 The church is then the household, so it's not just one person, it's a household, it's 07:40-07:42 a family, it's a household. 07:42-07:48 The church is then the household of God in heaven and earth in which all barriers and 07:48-07:57 divisions are abolished and prescribed, and all men and women are equally sons and daughters 07:57-08:03 of the Heavenly Father, sharing together in the inheritance of Jesus Christ, his beloved 08:03-08:04 Son. 08:04-08:09 So again, this incredible intimacy with the Father and the Son that the church is meant 08:09-08:15 to partake in with the family of God, the Father, sharing brotherhood with Jesus, with 08:15-08:20 the household of God, the very household of God where he lives in heaven and on earth, 08:20-08:25 with all barriers and divisions abolished and prescribed, and all men and women equally 08:25-08:28 sons and daughters of the Heavenly Father. 08:28-08:33 And we're sharing together as a fellowship in this inheritance of Jesus Christ, his beloved 08:33-08:34 Son. 08:34-08:37 Again, I don't hear that preached in church. 08:37-08:41 And then the one at the bottom, I'm going to leave the page 361 for a second, but going 08:41-08:45 down to the one at the bottom of the page, page 375. 08:45-08:53 In Jesus Christ, the form that the love of God took was the form of a servant who poured 08:53-08:56 out his love for mankind. 08:56-09:02 But the form that God's love took in him is the pattern for the communion of love in the 09:02-09:04 church. 09:04-09:10 The church is sent by him to live out its divinely given life among men and women and 09:10-09:16 by love to bring them into the fellowship of healing and peace with God. 09:16-09:22 So our mission is to follow the pattern of what Jesus did, partly. 09:22-09:30 And then, very importantly, Christ's vicarious life on behalf of all humanity is shared with 09:30-09:36 his church, and that's the page 361 on the first page, the vicarious life of Christ for 09:36-09:40 all humanity is shared with his church. 09:40-09:45 Through union with Christ, the church shares in his life and in all that he has done for 09:45-09:47 mankind. 09:47-09:53 Through his birth, its members have a new birth and are made members of the new humanity. 09:53-09:58 Through his obedient life and death, their sins are forgiven and they are clothed with 09:58-10:00 a new righteousness. 10:00-10:05 Through his resurrection and triumph over the powers of darkness, they are freed from 10:05-10:09 the dominion of evil and are made one body with him. 10:09-10:14 Through his ascension, the kingdom of heaven is open to all believers and the church waits 10:14-10:20 for his coming again to fulfill in all humanity the new creation which he has already begun 10:20-10:22 in it. 10:22-10:30 So that the church is very strongly linked and bound up with the life of Christ. 10:30-10:34 When we look at what he did in his life, his death, his resurrection and his ascension, 10:34-10:39 we've got to see the church has totally bound up with that and sharing in that now, we're 10:39-10:41 completely linked with that life. 10:41-10:49 It was a vicarious life and it's absolutely important for the church, vital for the church. 10:49-10:56 And then the risen ascended Christ is the fullness and the head of the church, his body. 10:56-11:02 Looking at the ascended Christ as fullness and head of church, his body. 11:02-11:05 Page 362 quote on the second side. 11:05-11:14 "That the church is the body of Christ means that it participates in him, draws its life 11:14-11:20 and its nature from him, sharing in all that he has done for it and sharing in his very 11:20-11:24 life as the incarnate son of the father." 11:24-11:28 If we took that seriously, our whole attitude in church I think would be completely different. 11:28-11:33 I just don't hear people praying or preaching or thinking about the job of our church and 11:33-11:38 our town wherever it is as being participating in what Christ is doing in that town. 11:38-11:41 I just don't hear these prayers being said. 11:41-11:44 We say them perhaps because we know a little bit about what we've learned from Torrance 11:44-11:48 but really I think as a church we need to be more and more saying we want to participate 11:48-11:51 in Bancory, we want to participate in Edinburgh and what Christ does. 11:51-11:55 We're absolutely bound to him as the head, what are you doing Christ? 11:55-11:59 What are you doing here in Haddington or Musselburgh or wherever else? 11:59-12:01 How can we join in that? 12:01-12:06 The church is the body of Christ means that it participates in him, draws its life and 12:06-12:11 nature from him, sharing in all that he has done for it and sharing in his very life. 12:11-12:19 Then page 361, "Thus the church finds its life and its being not in itself but in Jesus 12:19-12:21 Christ alone. 12:21-12:26 For not only is he the head of the church but he includes the church within his own 12:26-12:27 fullness." 12:27-12:31 Again, this incredible closeness absolutely bound up in Jesus Christ. 12:31-12:35 We don't do anything in the church unless Jesus tells us to do it. 12:35-12:38 We don't do anything in the church unless we see that's what Jesus is doing and that's 12:38-12:42 not what I'm seeing in the church. 12:42-12:51 Page 360c, the term body of Christ directs us at once to Christ himself, laying the emphasis 12:51-12:53 not on the body but on Christ. 12:53-12:58 Thus it does not focus attention on the church as an entity in itself. 12:58-13:02 How much of the time do we spend focusing on the church as an entity? 13:02-13:05 I was speaking to somebody yesterday who was saying that when he was asked to Elders meetings 13:05-13:08 all the talk was about finance and accounting and all this kind of stuff. 13:08-13:12 We're talking about fixing our attention on the church as an entity in himself. 13:12-13:17 So the focus is not on that or as something that exists for its own sake but upon the 13:17-13:23 church as the immediate property of Christ which he has made his own and gathered into 13:23-13:26 the most intimate relation with himself. 13:26-13:31 It reminds us that the church is only the body of which he is the head. 13:31-13:34 So we're only the body as he is the head. 13:34-13:39 As soon as we stop looking at him as the head we stop being the body and is therefore to 13:39-13:42 be subject to him in everything. 13:42-13:46 Jesus Christ alone is the essence of the church. 13:46-13:50 It is only in Christ that the church is the church. 13:50-13:57 Only in him, in him, right in him, in the heavenly places that it coheres and has its 13:57-14:00 principle of being and unity. 14:00-14:06 And only in and through him does it have its function and mission in the gospel. 14:06-14:11 So it is tremendous intimacy of the church as the body of Christ with him as the head 14:11-14:15 and we just need to get back to that as a church. 14:15-14:20 And then our participation in Christ and his mind I've added. 14:20-14:24 So we're going to look at the participation in him first and then look at him, his mind 14:24-14:26 being participating in his mind. 14:26-14:28 Page 363. 14:28-14:34 It is only through participating and sharing in Christ that the church is to be regarded 14:34-14:35 as his body. 14:35-14:38 Only as we're participating and sharing in him that we're even the church. 14:38-14:42 There may be lots and lots of places all over Scotland where nobody's participating in Christ 14:42-14:43 at all. 14:43-14:47 But we're not even the church in that situation. 14:47-14:54 Only on the ground of this participation in Christ is the church a community of believers, 14:54-14:58 a communion of love, a fellowship of reconciliation on earth. 14:58-15:02 So it seems to be saying if we're not participating in this way in Christ we've got nothing to 15:02-15:05 offer to the world around us. 15:05-15:07 Nothing. 15:07-15:10 And then the mind of Christ, participating in the mind of Christ. 15:10-15:12 Page 376. 15:12-15:20 The church is the community informed with the mind of Christ. 15:20-15:27 That transformation in our inner self in which we learn to think from a center in God rather 15:27-15:35 than a center in ourselves is the basic reorientation that takes place in the church of Jesus Christ. 15:35-15:41 That transformation in our inner self in which we learn to think from a center in God rather 15:41-15:48 than a center in ourselves is the basic reorientation that takes place in the church of Jesus Christ. 15:48-15:52 Imagine if we're sitting in an elders' meeting in the church and instead of thinking from 15:52-15:58 a center in ourselves as an eldership we actually started thinking from a center in God. 15:58-16:01 Page 376. 16:01-16:06 Theology is not primarily the function of individuals but of the church. 16:06-16:10 So theology, our whole churches should be doing theology. 16:10-16:17 For Christian thinking is essentially joint thinking, thinking in fellowship in which 16:17-16:24 we share with one another and learn from one another in Christ and refuse to run off on 16:24-16:26 private byways of our own. 16:26-16:29 How many private byways have we seen people running off on? 16:29-16:33 Christian thinking is essentially joint thinking, thinking in fellowship in which we share with 16:33-16:38 one another and learn from one another in Christ and refuse to run off on private byways 16:38-16:40 of our own. 16:40-16:44 Again I just don't think the churches we've really started to. 16:44-16:48 Discipleship and I'm head of the discipleship team in our church and it's a real struggle 16:48-16:51 to get people to think, to get to read books or to do anything at all. 16:51-16:54 It's like I'll come along to church on Sunday and that's it, whatever the minister says 16:54-16:55 I'll take that on board. 16:55-17:00 Getting people to think beyond that and to go beyond that is a real struggle and yet 17:00-17:02 we need to be doing theology together as a church. 17:02-17:08 We're going to find ways of helping the churches to do theology because that's how we're going 17:08-17:11 to participate in Christ. 17:11-17:16 And then our openness to the spirit, page 354 over the page. 17:16-17:24 The church has no independent existence or any power or life of its own. 17:24-17:28 How many churches think they've got independent existence and power? 17:28-17:34 Apart from what is unceasingly communicated to it through its union and communion with 17:34-17:41 Christ who dwells in it by the power of the spirit, filling it with the eternal life and 17:41-17:43 love of God himself. 17:43-17:45 It is quickened and born of the spirit. 17:45-17:48 It is filled and directed by the spirit. 17:48-17:54 Torrance is so dynamic in the way he brings the Father, the Son and the spirit together. 17:54-17:58 Christ dwelling in the church, tremendous intimacy with him and then by the power of 17:58-18:04 the spirit filling the church with life and love, quickening it and helping it to be born 18:04-18:09 of the spirit, filling it and directing it, the dynamic spirit. 18:09-18:11 And then page 361. 18:11-18:17 The church is the communion of saints, the whole company of the redeemed in heaven and 18:17-18:22 earth, living in communion with God through the Holy Spirit. 18:22-18:26 So the Holy Spirit's binding us together with all those who've gone before us right back 18:26-18:30 down through the centuries and all those who will come in future. 18:30-18:36 The church is the temple of the spirit, the sanctuary of God on earth where Christ dwells 18:36-18:41 through his spirit and which he unites with the sanctuary of God in the heavens. 18:41-18:43 It's a lovely phrase, isn't it? 18:43-18:46 Church is the temple of the spirit, the sanctuary of God on earth where Christ dwells through 18:46-18:51 his spirit and which he unites with the sanctuary of God in the heavens. 18:51-18:54 So again, the whole church being in Christ in the heavenly places. 18:54-18:59 As such, it is the community of men and women filled with the presence of the spirit and 18:59-19:06 sent out in the power of the spirit to live out the divine life and love among humankind. 19:06-19:11 So we're sent out to take the very love of the Trinity out among humankind and we can 19:11-19:13 only do this by the spirit. 19:13-19:20 And then lastly, the church is also rooted and grounded in Christ by being incorporated 19:20-19:25 into him through his word and spirit, back to what Bob was saying yesterday about the 19:25-19:26 word and the spirit. 19:26-19:30 The church is rooted and grounded in Christ by being incorporated into him through his 19:30-19:32 word and spirit. 19:32-19:36 So very important, the Bible there and through him the word as well were incorporated in 19:36-19:39 the church there through that. 19:39-19:44 It's called into fellowship with him and united to him by the baptism of the spirit so that 19:44-19:50 its members are made to share in Christ's obedient life and are assimilated to his new 19:50-19:51 humanity. 19:51-19:54 It's worth just reading that one again. 19:54-19:58 The church is called into fellowship with him and united to him by the baptism of the 19:58-20:05 spirit so that its members are made to share, participating again in Christ's obedient life 20:05-20:10 and are assimilated to his new humanity. 20:10-20:11 Absolutely beautiful. 20:11-20:16 I think Torrance has said, when I read the chapter on the church, the words are just 20:16-20:17 fantastic. 20:17-20:20 I mean these are just some snippets I've given you but his picture of the church is just 20:20-20:28 tremendous, based in the Trinitarian theology, incarnational theology, Christ's vicarious 20:28-20:34 life, the fact that he's the head and fullness of the church, that we participate in him, 20:34-20:36 that we're open to the spirit. 20:36-20:42 I say at the end here, although TFT gave many years of his life training candidates for 20:42-20:47 the ministry of the Church of Scotland, that ministry was one of word and sacrament and 20:47-20:52 did not envisage the one man ministry which to a greater or lesser extent has been and 20:52-20:57 still is the experience of too many churches in Scotland which have failed to engage in 20:57-21:04 the congregational participation which is implicit in scripture, the Trinity, the Incarnation, 21:04-21:08 the Ascension and the work of the Spirit from Pentecost onwards. 21:08-21:11 God bless. 21:11-21:21 God bless.