Firbush Retreats Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush. ----------- Firbush Retreat Fall 2016 Discussion https://tftorrance.org/firbushF2016 4 November 2016 The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript. ------------ 00:00-00:15 Just making sure we don't miss anything. Thank you, Raj, David. Clearly, we've already had 00:15-00:21 some pastoral issues being raised yesterday as well, but that invites us, I think, just 00:21-00:30 to ponder very much the pastoral effect, the place of communion within ministry, within 00:30-00:34 the life of the church. I wonder if anyone would like to comment or question anything 00:34-00:37 on that. Yes, Angus, please. 00:37-00:52 I was speaking with George, the passage I alluded to last night in Acts 2017 to my mind, and 00:52-01:03 I'm not sure if I'm on the right track or not, you'll see, where I'm coming from a number 01:03-01:12 of times. I'm beginning that as day began to dawn, Paul urged the people on board to 01:12-01:24 take food. And that narrative, a short narrative from verse 33, it looks to me very like it 01:24-01:41 has the feeling of a celebration of the Eucharist. And the words that God says, "I have given 01:41-01:50 you those who sail with you," and so on. And I just wonder whether what was happening on 01:50-01:59 board the ship there in these incredibly stressful circumstances that Paul and his fellow sailors 01:59-02:12 were in, where I sense that there was an openness to God and to the Spirit. Paul, when he had 02:12-02:19 said this, he took bread, he gave thanks to God in the presence of all, he broke it, and 02:19-02:26 they began to eat. And then they were all encouraged and eat. And I just wonder whether 02:26-02:40 that might have been an example of the Eucharist, the sac of the supper as a converting ordinance. 02:40-02:45 The words that were said to Paul, "I've given them to you," that maybe has a deeper, did 02:45-02:50 that have a deeper significance, not only were their physical lives saved, but that 02:50-02:56 these were people who came to experience salvation. That's just a thought. 02:56-03:05 Thank you, Paul. I never put it in that context. I mean, well, I like it, I must say. And I 03:05-03:12 certainly say that in distant days, the 03:12-03:19 opposite act of miracle, not good of action, the entire moon changes. People are open to 03:19-03:26 the Gospel. And they're open to that, no good operator. But in that context, and I can imagine 03:26-03:32 it in Paul, in the case of Shipley. Very interesting, and thank you for that. 03:32-03:39 I mean, he said, he certainly, there's no shortage of it. He took up ties in that context, 03:39-03:42 but there's no reference to it. 03:42-03:47 Yes, please, Martin. 03:47-03:55 I like that, and it's fine. I think it's worth pointing out that it was Wesley who used the 03:55-04:00 phrase "converting ordinance." And somebody may correct me, but my understanding is that 04:00-04:05 he was talking there about it being a converting ordinance to the baptized. The assumption 04:05-04:11 was that you were baptized, and communion had a converting effect in your Christian 04:11-04:18 life. And so I don't think the original use of that term was an evangelistic tool for the 04:18-04:24 unevangelized, the unsaved. It was about the nurturing of the Christian faith. You can change 04:24-04:26 that, but I just think it's worth pointing out that. 04:26-04:33 I find myself quite torn about it, because in the first session I talked about the arcane 04:33-04:38 disciplines in the early church. And I actually quite like the idea that there's a kind of 04:38-04:43 mystery and there's something which binds Christians together. And I love the idea of 04:43-04:50 children being admitted to communion while high-powered business people and top executives 04:50-04:54 are told, "Sorry, you have to leave at this point." There's something I quite like about 04:54-04:58 the top-two-turvy. And I'm not pushing this, because I also really appreciate the idea 04:58-05:06 of the communion displaying grace. And in my own practice, the prayer I use says something 05:06-05:13 like, "Come, those who have faith and those who would like to have more faith," or something 05:13-05:17 like that. It's a delicate balance. But again, I talked about Bonhoeffer and cheap grace, 05:17-05:23 and I think there is a kind of a danger sometimes of just profaning something, which is profound. 05:23-05:31 Which is profoundly mysterious. Is this a balance? But I don't think, when Wesley talked 05:31-05:35 about converting ordinances, I don't think he was talking about it in quite the way you 05:35-05:39 were suggesting, Angus. But maybe I could be corrected on that. 08:55-09:03 That's right. I rejoiced. I mean, he had communion, and that was taking of... the bread and wine 09:03-09:09 was his conversion. The word was 'seaward.' He'll say that. 09:09-09:11 David? 09:51-10:03 I'm welcoming of him. Now, I'm mindful too that the Passover in Jewish Christianity, because it was 10:03-10:11 regarded, and Tia brings this out, as a renewal of the covenant, it was a covenant meal. And that 10:11-10:21 was brought out in the communion, when he gives the wine, that that was only for Jews. They wouldn't 10:21-10:35 include people from out with the Jewish community in that. However, the dispensation has changed. 10:35-10:45 There was a new covenant. So I haven't felt any restraint, I suppose, in offering this, but I'm trying to 10:45-10:55 make it clear that this is a real presentation of Christ, and this is an active way, if you like, 10:55-10:59 of welcoming and receiving him. 10:59-11:11 I certainly will stand that two-thirds went down the road of fencing and tables. I had these members 11:11-11:23 in each of my parishes. Mary Deboeck, my first headmaster, in my first parish, came from Strathnego. 11:23-11:31 One of the most diligent attenders in church, morning and evening, clerked the board, not a member. 11:31-11:39 And I got lovely to say to these people, in a kind way, "Look, are you not insulting the grace of God? 11:39-11:45 If something comes along and gives you a Christmas present, are you going to say, "No, no, I've got to pay for that?" 11:45-11:55 Is it that? And God offers you his love, his salvation, you know, insulting God. 11:55-12:04 It's a bit of a shock to them to say that. Dear folk, but I feel sad that they come to that tradition. 12:04-12:06 David, do you want to come back and then wire it? Yes? 12:06-12:26 I hesitate to identify with you what you do. I think that would have been a huge jump from the Jewish understanding. 12:26-12:36 I think a high view of sacraments, and this is a genuine presentation of Christ, but in that context, when Christ really is set forth, 12:36-12:42 then I think it's great to welcome anybody who wishes to come and receive. 12:42-13:02 But my slight hesitation about identifying every meal as if it were a communion is that that suggests to me, as if that's been done down in some way. 13:02-13:12 And certainly Paul in that story is inviting them to join with him in giving thanks to God and putting their faith in him. 13:12-13:21 But, you know, there are lots of meals. So I'm sort of hesitant on that one. 13:21-13:30 But I would hesitate also to just offering communion in a sort of dumbed-down way for everybody. 13:30-13:35 I'm kind of bursting to say something to myself, but Moira, please. 13:35-13:41 I think David said that the Passover was exclusively to Israelites. 13:41-13:50 But my recollection is that I can't give chapter and verse, but my recollection is that you were to welcome strangers into it. 13:50-13:56 Yes, thank you. So that would not be faced. 13:56-14:05 If you think of the last supper, that was definitely fenced because Jesus, remember how he set it up. 14:05-14:10 If you go to a certain street, you'll find a man carrying water. 14:10-14:21 It seems to me that he didn't want Judas to know in advance where it was going to be so that that event could happen before Jesus was arrested. 14:21-14:30 So I feel that was really well fenced, but not the Passover, for what that's worth. 14:30-14:36 It was a covenant meal, and then it was for the people of the covenant. 14:36-14:51 We're certainly in a realm that we were taken to during worship as well, of course, where law can be used in powerful ways, and unfortunately sometimes, can't they? 14:51-15:00 I suspect, just to give Lance a bit of support, I think, strictly speaking, indeed, historically converting ordinance was precisely what you said. 15:00-15:12 I'm now thinking I'm a total hypocrite. All the discussion in the General Assembly about the word of God contained in the Scriptures, I'm absolutely sure what that must mean, because it must mean the original meaning. 15:12-15:18 Now we can say that converting ordinance can mean something other than the original meaning. 15:18-15:37 Because conversion is certainly not simply coming to Christ for the first time. To be converted to Christ is to be turned back to Christ, to come into Christ. 15:37-16:04 Clearly that actually matters very much for everyone who's been baptized, but it also matters for others too. I think you're, whether it's devil's advocate or actually, I don't think I want to call it that, but there is this line between cheap grace, between completely dumbing down, just saying, "Oh, give me all habit, who cares, it's all about you and affirming you," but also holding up the seriousness. 16:04-16:16 Just on personal experience, this is where it's all so organic to us. This Sunday we have our annual All Soulsy, All Saintsy kind of service. 16:16-16:29 I'm always interested, because I do a full blown communion for that, and I invite everyone for whom I've done a funeral, I mean, not the deceased, the relatives. 16:29-16:50 What interests me is that I usually have more take up from those who were, as it were, parish funerals and not church people, despite my lecture laying out at some length, this is going to be a full blown communion service, although explaining why we're doing it. 16:50-17:04 So when they come, I'm not going to spend my time, some of you can't have it by the way, but the service itself will, I hope, make clear what it is we're doing and when we're doing it. 17:04-17:23 And because we don't, now even in the death in my church anyway, we don't have a table which you come up to and which asks for your token to get a seat at it, therefore it's up to people in the end whether they simply pass the bread along or they take the bread and pass it along. 17:23-17:27 I mean, we're all sitting together. 17:27-17:38 Again, in my talk I talked about Bonhoeffer's idea of a cantus firmus and improvisation, and for me, I apply that to communion, for me the cantus firmus is this is a covenant meal for the people of God. 17:38-17:56 Now I think there's improvisation on that, and I think there's scope for freedom and improvisation, and I think you establish the basic fact, this is what it is, but there's endless room for improvisation and I would never turn anybody away, I have no right to do that whatsoever. 17:56-18:12 It's interesting because I think different contexts allow for different improvisation, for example in my church in Cambridge, something I actually kind of disagreed with, Christmas Eve we had a communion service, and I actually kind of felt that was wrong because Christmas Eve service I was used to in Scotland, 18:12-18:29 absolutely everybody came for a good sing-along and I sort of thought to have communion here is just kind of creating a problem, but we did it, and not huge numbers of people came but a number of people did and I just felt on Christmas Eve it was a time to say, "Come, it doesn't matter who you are, just come!" 18:29-18:45 because the context just made that an appropriate improvisation, and I remember my son had a Muslim friend who used to come on that evening, and I just delighted in the fact that he took it, I just took communion, I just thought it was great. 18:45-18:59 Now that was to become a regular practice, I think at some point I'd sit down with him and say, "We need to talk a bit about this," but for me the event of Christmas Eve allowed an improvisation which it might not do a lot of times. 18:59-19:05 So I think it's a good example of where you have a cantus firmus but there's endless room for it. 19:05-19:07 Bruce? 19:07-19:29 I grew up in the borders of the first parishes in the south of Scotland, then the last parish was up in Dingwall, and after a while, very quickly I realised that the culture in the Highlands was quite different, and I moved from one church to Scotland heresy to another one. 19:29-19:44 In the south, on Communion Sunday, you have many communicants but few worshippers, and in the Highlands it's obviously a problem, you have many who worship and few that communicate. 19:44-19:59 And thinking about this, and also HDC, I tried to give a lecture on Highland Communion, I should have given Angus up to do it, I was given a short straw. 19:59-20:14 One of the things I noticed when doing the research was that the term 'to fence' was an old Scottish legal term, and when you fence something, you set it up appropriately. 20:14-20:27 You make sure that it's going to be conducted in the proper manner, so when in a court of law things are fenced, originally it didn't mean that a barrier was put in place. 20:27-20:39 What it meant was that things were going to happen now in the proper way. Now we can see how that can then become distorted into becoming a barrier. 20:39-20:48 It originally meant to do things in a proper way, in a way appropriate to the occasion. 20:48-21:09 I think in the Highland context, and Angus will correct me here, the fencing on the table, or the reluctance of people coming to the table, it's not just about them feeling morally unrighteous, there's something about the experience of the soul. 21:09-21:24 One of the things in Highland evangelical theology in communion season was the question 'will he also be at the feast?' taken from John's Gospel, 'will Jesus come to the feast of Tabernacles?' 21:24-21:40 The question was, in piety, 'will he also be at the feast?' There was a fear that if things were not done properly, if things were done in an ungodly way, Christ would not come to the feast. 21:40-22:05 Therefore the feast would be emptied of his presence, of his power, and of what that meant. Therefore one of the reasons many people were afraid to take communion was the fear that their taking communion might mean that Christ stayed away and others would be lost, or others would lose the blessing that that would bring. 22:05-22:25 And that emerged when there came an emphasis on the sign of conversion being your own experience of piety, and your own experience of an inward work, rather than the main focus being on the objective thing that God has done in Christ. 22:25-22:35 And it's the same with the question that was put to people before they were admitted to the sign, which at Reformation time was on the objective truth. 22:35-22:48 Do you believe the creed? Do you believe the commandments? Do you believe these things? And if you believe these things objectively, and your life didn't show that that contradicted, you were admitted to the table. 22:48-23:05 But one of the unfortunate byproducts of the evangelical revival, which we all treasure of course, was that that moved from being an objective statement of things, to 'can you prove by your subjective experience that this is true for you?' 23:05-23:24 And as for the Ireland context affected by evangelicalism in that form, the thing then became 'I cannot come to the table unless I can prove from my own experience it's become real, and maybe my experience has not been deep enough compared with so and so down the road.' 23:24-23:41 And so it wasn't just the sense of morally I am unable to come here, that there's a change from the objective focus on the work of Christ to my subjective realisation of that, and articulation of that, that created barriers as well. 23:41-24:01 Roger, if you could just see it here for a minute and then we'll just come to you. Thank you for assuming, yes, that's slightly news to me, not the latter part of it, but this business of believing that Christ would not be present for anyone. 24:01-24:21 I spent 11 years as Minister of St Columbus' Old Paratroopers and Astronomy, and what Bruce said is exactly right in terms of the proportion of the community, and everyone else stayed away. 24:21-24:36 I mean the percentage of community members in the congregation, it was a large congregation but it was comparatively small, and that grieved me and troubled me all my years there and I didn't. 24:36-24:57 And it became very clear to me that the explanation is just along the lines that Bruce has outlined that people, it wasn't so much a moral problem that you know they had moral issues in their life that were keeping them back, it was this focus on subjectivity, 24:57-25:23 and this concern that internally, spiritually they were right, and there's something in that tradition that encourages people to sort of you know really look inside and to scrape the insides of their soul until they're red, raw and bleeding, 25:23-25:37 to see whether in fact they should be at the Lord's Supper or not, rather than, as Bruce said, the important objective presentation of the Gospel and all of that. 25:37-25:57 I don't know how you overcome that because, I mean there were people in my congregation, not a few, who were the most lovely Christian people you could meet and who give every evidence that they were followers of Jesus but they would not come to the Lord's Table. 25:57-26:18 Because I'm not so aware of what Bruce said about you know that this was going to keep him away, maybe something of that, but I wasn't so conscious of that aspect, it was just that in terms of their own subjective Christian experience they weren't convinced they were there. 26:18-26:25 But the problem was that the focus was in turn, the focus was inside rather than on Christ. 26:25-26:27 Roger and then David. 26:27-26:36 Jesus was raised again the tabernacle of God, the Jewish tradition, so that God is with his people. 26:36-26:50 And that comes again in the Communion. Jesus says in my Father's house and many dwelling places, and then just a few verses later he says we will make our dwelling place, same word, in Greek, yeah? 26:50-26:57 In you. So that God's tabernacle is himself in us. 26:57-27:10 In the, to my mind appalling, new Book of Common Worship in the Church of England, they've taken away the line that used to say, 27:10-27:22 from the Old Mass, Domineus and Venus, Lord I am not worthy that thou didst come under my roof. And now it says Lord I am not worthy to receive you, which takes away this tabernacle-ing bit. 27:22-27:34 And I was very interested, David was telling us, the man who's converted drinking, maybe you can't sometimes discern the body until you've got it. 27:34-27:41 In the same way that for the whole Christian enterprise sometimes you can hardly see that there's a way until you're on it. 27:41-27:44 David. 27:44-27:50 I'm just going to share a story, really. This is going back to the early mid-eighties. 27:50-28:01 I was in London on a mission in Acton, run by a local Baptist church. 28:01-28:14 Most of the young folk that we had around were, well most of them had been involved in the Brixton riots that had been happening a few months earlier. 28:14-28:22 And so it was an interesting lot of people that we had, and most of whom had had no contact at all with the church. 28:22-28:32 It was deemed to be a great idea to invite people at the end of the week to come to an evening service in the church, and to be a Baptist. 28:32-28:46 This would be a great opportunity for them. So they were invited en masse and by 25, 30 or so turned up, never having been in church, some roller skating to the front on their nice new carpet. 28:46-28:54 And of course, not having been in church, they wanted a front seat. 28:54-29:07 This was a bit much for some of the deacons, so they decided that they would be better relegated to the balcony, in picture, a sort of U-shaped balcony. 29:07-29:27 So of course they all stopped upstairs, roller skates and all, and got themselves to the nearest bit overlooking the Baptist street, and on either side, so they weren't able to wave at each other. 29:27-29:47 But they felt excluded, and so that didn't help with their behaviour. And then part of the thing was that they celebrated communion, and of course, they gave deacons and they served everybody else, but not these young folks. 29:47-30:05 And by this point they were totally switched off, and so the thing descended to them trying to throw pennies into the Baptist street. 30:05-30:17 Right, we want to just move on very slightly, but yes, one last, yes. 30:17-30:27 I always used to love baptisms in the church, because like David said, they didn't know to sit at the back, they would be crowded to the front so they could see what was going to happen. 30:27-30:40 And it was just so different from what happened. But before they came in, they would stand outside at the church door smoking and so forth, and then they would put it away before they entered into the alien and threatening environment of the church. 30:40-30:49 Yes, it's just interesting how people who don't know how it works assume that you want to get near the front.