Firbush Retreats Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush. ----------- Firbush Retreat Summer 2017 June 14, 2017 Robert T. Walker interview of David W. Torrance, "New Creation in Preaching" https://tftorrance.org/firbushS2017 The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript. ------------ 00:00-00:19 Well, you've been a minister for many many years, I think three parishes, over ten years 00:19-00:25 in each, you've had a lifetime of experience and your ministry has been exceptionally fruitful. 00:25-00:34 The number of people who have gone into full-time service, what place do you think preaching, 00:34-00:43 creation and new creation should have in ministry and in preaching? 00:43-00:44 Really very basic. 00:44-00:50 When we are called to preach, first and foremost, we are called to present Christ. 00:50-00:58 In His incarnation, that is life, death, resurrection and ascension, our whole focus should be on 00:58-00:59 Christ. 00:59-01:09 Having said that, we have to remember that in preaching Christ, Christ who is God and 01:09-01:13 man took our flesh and blood. 01:13-01:20 He became a man, identified himself with us, lived out a human life on this earth so that 01:20-01:30 He came to redeem us and present to us a new human life, the vicarious humanity of Christ. 01:30-01:36 When we emphasize the vicarious humanity of Christ, we're talking about Christ who is 01:36-01:47 God and man and came to redeem us, to redeem mankind created out of dust. 01:47-01:52 So He came to redeem not only mankind but the whole of creation. 01:52-01:54 We sometimes forget that. 01:54-02:02 So that first and foremost we are here to focus our whole preaching on Christ but that's 02:02-02:04 not a narrow subject. 02:04-02:11 It embraces the whole of Christ from His birth, life, death, resurrection. 02:11-02:18 We emphasize the vicarious character, life of Christ and from that we have to emphasize 02:18-02:23 He came to recreate the whole of creation. 02:23-02:30 When we talk about new creation, it only occurs six or seven times, the New Heaven, the New 02:30-02:37 Earth and the New Testament, although the theme is everywhere also the New Testament, 02:37-02:44 wherever we are Christ. 02:44-02:46 I think I'll leave it there. 02:46-02:51 Yes, you say there are only two places where the New Testament actually uses the words 02:51-03:00 new creation and three or four where it speaks about new heavens and a new earth. 03:00-03:09 Why do you think the New Testament speaks so little explicitly about new creation? 03:09-03:15 When we talk about the new creation, God isn't giving us an entirely new creation. 03:15-03:21 It's this creation which He has come to cleanse and renew. 03:21-03:23 God doesn't cast away what He created. 03:23-03:32 So that when He came in Christ to renew our humanity, He recreates us. 03:32-03:38 He recreates this creation, not something entirely new. 03:38-03:45 And in that sense, what He came to do, whenever we talk about Christ, we talk about what He 03:45-03:51 came to do in His person to work in the whole of His redemption. 03:51-03:57 So only about six or seven times do we have these words of the New Testament. 03:57-04:03 The theme is everywhere, wherever we are in Christ. 04:03-04:10 So if we see the whole coming of Christ as a coming to renew creation, how precisely 04:10-04:13 would you say He goes about it? 04:13-04:20 I mean, how are we to read the New Testament to see it as that this is what is going on, 04:20-04:27 the new creation is in the process of being made? 04:27-04:36 When Jesus came, He came preaching, called His people to be aware that the Kingdom of 04:36-04:39 God was near at hand. 04:39-04:43 God had broken into this world in Christ. 04:43-04:47 With the coming of Jesus Christ, there's a coming, the breaking into this world of the 04:47-04:50 new creation. 04:50-04:56 And when He comes to bed at women offering them His love, His forgiveness, yes, He called 04:56-05:02 us to be born again, to be recreated. 05:02-05:06 He gives us a totally new life. 05:06-05:11 And in that context, He came to heal, a dramatic sign that He is transforming the whole of 05:11-05:17 life and ultimately the whole of creation. 05:17-05:22 So when He says you must be born again, He's actually meaning you have to be recreated. 05:22-05:29 Yes, indeed, it's something total. 05:29-05:33 The whole of the Gospel is supernatural. 05:33-05:40 It bothers me when people say, as one of our former moderators, Jim Wetherhead, who just 05:40-05:46 died, and his moderator said he believed in the resurrection, but he didn't accept the 05:46-05:49 virgin birth, it didn't belong to the substance of the faith. 05:49-05:55 I find this sad because the whole of Christ from beginning to end, the whole of the Gospel 05:55-05:57 is miraculous. 05:57-06:01 It's a breaking in of the new creation. 06:01-06:08 The Kingdom of God coming in the person of Christ in what He said it did, and He's here 06:08-06:13 to transform the whole of our lives, the whole of creation. 06:13-06:22 And how exactly did He go about it, actually making us new? 06:22-06:27 How did He go about it? 06:27-06:33 Well, we could only read the Gospel story and it's quite clear that when Christ comes, 06:33-06:34 people are totally transformed. 06:34-06:39 They're the same people, but they're totally transformed. 06:39-06:46 And when you and I come to Christ, yes, you and I are totally transformed. 06:46-06:53 And when we preach, we're calling on people to be confronted with Christ, to receive Christ, 06:53-06:58 and to become a new creature in Christ. 06:58-07:06 So that as we look at the Gospel, we see this dynamic figure of one who's God and yet man 07:06-07:16 transforming lives and transforming society and creation. 07:16-07:23 You say that in your paper, you say that throughout His earthly ministry, that when He was healing, 07:23-07:30 each healing was a sign that this was the new creation beginning. 07:30-07:37 Yes, when Jesus was here, He was God. 07:37-07:42 Because God was present, we should expect things to happen and things did happen. 07:42-07:45 People were transformed and people were healed. 07:45-07:49 Wherever Jesus went, people were healed. 07:49-07:56 And that healing was a sign that God had broken into this world. 07:56-07:58 The kingdom of God had come. 07:58-08:06 They had broken into this world a supreme transforming power in the presence of Christ. 08:06-08:10 So that every healing is a sign of Christ. 08:10-08:12 And that's true today. 08:12-08:18 When you and I pray and someone is healed, it's a sign of the presence of the power of 08:18-08:20 Christ. 08:20-08:27 Something I think you and I have got to recover today, you take communion, which is a marvellous 08:27-08:30 concentration on the person of Christ. 08:30-08:37 We believe in the real, crucified, risen, reigning Christ present in the sacrament of 08:37-08:38 Holy Communion. 08:38-08:45 And we are asked in the bread and the wine to once again receive Jesus, to receive the 08:45-08:47 mighty Son of God. 08:47-08:57 But to receive Christ, we should expect to be receiving something quite transforming. 08:57-09:02 And therefore we should, I believe, see real healings at communion. 09:02-09:05 Sadly in this country we don't see much of that. 09:05-09:09 I think there's something wrong, but when we look at the third world, I think they have 09:09-09:11 a lot to teach us in this way. 09:11-09:18 But no, I think every healing is a sign of the presence of God breaking into this world, 09:18-09:21 present in this world in Christ. 09:21-09:25 Sign of the new creation. 09:25-09:34 Why do you think it is in the church that we've lost the sense of the whole dynamic 09:34-09:36 of God breaking in and of the new creation? 09:36-09:46 I think we have to ask ourselves, have we as a church concentrated solely on Jesus Christ? 09:46-09:53 When Paul went to Collins, he said, "I determined to know nothing about you except Christ and 09:53-09:55 the crucified." 09:55-10:01 Now, when we look at the church today and I look at my own church, we have a whole lot 10:01-10:07 of various emphasis on justice and peace and all the rest of it, all of which is important. 10:07-10:11 But our chief focus should be on Jesus Christ. 10:11-10:19 And I'd have to say that's lacking, very much lacking in our church. 10:19-10:26 I say that as a minister of the Church of Scotland, that we get all sorts of emphasis. 10:26-10:28 But is Christ supreme? 10:28-10:31 Now, that's not narrow. 10:31-10:33 That is completely total. 10:33-10:38 It's embracing the whole of life, embracing the whole of creation. 10:38-10:45 But I think it's this lack of concentration on Christ and this focus on Christ. 10:45-10:54 If we preached Christ more and new creation more, would that actually lead to a much better 10:54-10:56 focus on creation also? 10:56-10:58 Yes, indeed. 10:58-11:01 I'm sure of that. 11:01-11:09 We cannot separate humankind, mankind, if I can use that word, from creation. 11:09-11:14 It's quite wrong to think of Israel apart from the land of Israel. 11:14-11:20 There's messes of stuff written about Israel, and they don't talk about the land. 11:20-11:26 But if you take the Old Testament seriously, you just can't look at Israel and separate 11:26-11:29 them from the land of Israel. 11:29-11:32 And when Israel was blessed, the land was blessed. 11:32-11:37 When Israel disobeyed, the land suffered was cursed. 11:37-11:42 Likewise, you and I are created from the dust of the earth. 11:42-11:43 We belong to this world. 11:43-11:47 And you cannot separate mankind from the whole of creation. 11:47-11:49 They belong together. 11:49-11:58 When God came to redeem us in Christ, he came to transform us completely, totally, recreating 11:58-12:04 us in his image, and to recreate the whole of creation. 12:04-12:07 I feel very strongly about this issue. 12:07-12:13 You see it when people separate Israel and the land, and I begin to squirm, they think 12:13-12:15 your narrow is far from it. 12:15-12:19 I mean, Israel does many things which are wrong. 12:19-12:21 Every nation does many things that are wrong. 12:21-12:29 But the whole biblical emphasis is Israel and the land go hand in hand, and mankind, 12:29-12:34 humankind, goes hand in hand with the whole of creation. 12:34-12:42 And God came to renew the whole of creation in Christ. 12:42-12:49 You say in your paper that we've just made this strong link between that we as human 12:49-12:54 beings are made out of dust, and we can't be separated from creation. 12:54-13:02 And you also say in your paper that there's some kind of link between creation and what 13:02-13:12 we do, and that somehow through human sin, creation itself has something done to it. 13:12-13:21 In what sense is there this kind of somehow link between what we do as humanity, as man, 13:21-13:24 and creation itself? 13:24-13:30 In distant days when I was at college, I had two professors who tested me, Jess, George, 13:30-13:35 and Willie Manson, two marvelous men. 13:35-13:43 And Willie Manson used to say to us, "When man sinned, man opened the floodgates, and 13:43-13:49 sin came in like a flood and swept over the whole of creation." 13:49-13:55 So that when mankind turned from God, the whole of creation was spoiled. 13:55-14:01 Now when we read the Old Testament, that comes through again and again and again. 14:01-14:09 That when Israel obeyed God, the crops prospered, the land prospered, that Israel turned away 14:09-14:14 and worshiped idols, and then suffered and was cursed, and the birds and the animals 14:14-14:15 suffered. 14:15-14:21 You get that in various other prophets, that the two go hand in hand. 14:21-14:28 And it comes that when man is blessed, creation is blessed. 14:28-14:31 Yes, there's a very real relationship. 14:31-14:38 When we think of Christ and the redemption of Christ, he came to redeem, yes, you and 14:38-14:46 I, but the whole of creation, to recreate us that there is a new heaven and a new us. 14:46-14:52 It's not a radically new heaven, it's this heaven that has cleansed and used to be perfect. 14:52-14:56 As I said, he doesn't cast off when he is created. 14:56-15:04 But that is a very close link to me in scripture. 15:04-15:11 You give a number of key quotes about when the New Testament uses the words "new creation" 15:11-15:12 or "new heavens and new earth." 15:12-15:18 And you mentioned Peter, to Peter, where he says, "We're looking forward to a new heaven 15:18-15:21 and a new earth, the home of righteousness." 15:21-15:26 Does that mean that heaven will be on earth? 15:26-15:32 Talking about the creation itself being blessed, will heaven itself be on earth? 15:32-15:38 However we understand that language, what I've tried to say is that God has come in 15:38-15:45 Christ to cleanse and renew the heavens and the earth as you and I do it. 15:45-15:50 This earth and the heavens as we do it. 15:50-15:56 Something totally complete and radical. 15:56-16:00 Now he came to cleanse it and to renew it and make it perfect. 16:00-16:03 We have the foretaste in Christ. 16:03-16:07 We have the foretaste through the Spirit as we share in the new life of Christ and we 16:07-16:13 look forward to the day when finally Christ comes, or you're called, away and you and 16:13-16:16 I will live in the new heavens and the earth. 16:16-16:25 But is this heaven and earth cleanse the new? 16:25-16:31 You said that we're made out of the dust of the earth and you quote Willie Barkley, who 16:31-16:35 is a very well-known and loved figure taught in Glasgow. 16:35-16:38 He speaks about our life here in the body's intent. 16:38-16:45 He quote, "A temporary dwelling place in which we sojourn till the day comes when it is dissolved 16:45-16:47 and we enter the real abode of our souls." 16:47-16:52 Does that mean that when we die the soul leaves the body? 16:52-16:59 I mean, is there a spiritual thing called a soul that isn't made of dust? 16:59-17:05 When I made that quotation for Willie Barkley, I hummed and hummed and thought about it. 17:05-17:12 If you take it, his quotation, it depends on how you interpret what he said. 17:12-17:17 If you interpret it, I think, in quite a way, it fits in fine. 17:17-17:23 But no, we cannot separate soul and body in no way. 17:23-17:31 The soul and body are loved together, as Brother Tom used to say, the soul is an embodied soul 17:31-17:35 and the body is a bestowed body. 17:35-17:42 The body and soul are one unit and Christ came to theme us all together. 17:42-17:45 Now, what was your question there? 17:45-17:48 Yeah, does the soul leave the body? 17:48-17:49 No. 17:49-17:51 Of death? 17:51-17:53 No. 17:53-17:57 The Greeks, in all their philosophy, this is dog of the church, did separate soul and 17:57-17:58 body. 17:58-18:03 There are many illustrations of that, that the soul is imprisoned in the body and death 18:03-18:06 means the soul is set free. 18:06-18:15 When we say no, that soul and body is complete, you cannot separate soul and body, then we 18:15-18:22 have to say that the whole soul and body dies and the soul and body is resurrected. 18:22-18:27 Now, then comes the point which is dog of the church. 18:27-18:37 What is the link between the soul and body here and the soul and body in heaven? 18:37-18:41 Many people have tried to get round this one. 18:41-18:50 In my philosophy days, I read and reread almost the whole Emil Küthner stuff. 18:50-18:54 When I started theology, I became influenced by Barth. 18:54-19:03 I abandoned Prüder on the grounds that Prüder never really escaped rationalism. 19:03-19:08 If you remember, which is very much to the fore in my student days, the great debate 19:08-19:16 between Barth and Prüder on the imago Dei, the image of God, and this comes out here. 19:16-19:19 I came squarely down inside of Barth. 19:19-19:23 So I would say, "No, we die. 19:23-19:24 The whole of us dies. 19:24-19:25 One is soul, whatever you like. 19:25-19:27 We are one unit. 19:27-19:29 The whole of us is resurrected. 19:29-19:36 But in some marvelous way that you and I cannot explain, the you or I that's resurrected is 19:36-19:41 the same you and I. But you cannot explain that rationally." 19:41-19:51 In many attempts, I really fond of Professor Donald Mackay, professor of the future of 19:51-19:52 college, retired. 19:52-19:57 I remember him criticizing my two brothers. 19:57-20:03 And blessed, I have a great admiration for him. 20:03-20:05 There was a something that was continuous. 20:05-20:08 "No, no, you can't do that. 20:08-20:09 It's irrationalism." 20:09-20:16 So all I was saying is, "No, the whole body and soul is one unit dies and is resurrected. 20:16-20:20 And in the grace of God, you and I are the same person. 20:20-20:26 But you and I have no, you can't say what the rational continuity is." 20:26-20:28 Thank you very much. 20:28-20:31 That's very helpful. 20:31-20:41 Something else that I'd like to ask you, you say, you quote, this is a chapter five, summarizing 20:41-20:43 chapter four, chapter five, chapter six. 20:43-20:48 Chapter five, you say, "Living by the Spirit in the new creation, we are saved from the 20:48-20:51 wrath of God by God's love." 20:51-20:55 I've always thought we're actually saved by the wrath of God. 20:55-20:58 Are those two things completely contradictory? 20:58-20:59 No. 20:59-21:08 It's very biblical to say that when we are redeemed, we are saved from the wrath of God. 21:08-21:12 Paul says we are no longer under condemnation. 21:12-21:16 Equally Paul would talk a lot about the wrath of God. 21:16-21:23 And we can thank God for the wrath of God, that he is always resisting sin, judging it, 21:23-21:27 only he took it upon himself in Jesus Christ. 21:27-21:35 And so you and I are saved because of God's resistance and judgment of human sin. 21:35-21:40 So I would like to say both that we are saved from the wrath of God and by God's grace, 21:40-21:46 we are saved by God's wrath. 21:46-21:48 I think we can hold the two together. 21:48-21:55 Yes, I ask that because quite often you hear people saying that the wrath of God wants 21:55-22:00 us to be punished, whereas the love of God wants to save us. 22:00-22:06 And it's kind of with the love of Christ wins in a sense. 22:06-22:13 So it would be fair to say that it's only because God... the wrath in the Bible means 22:13-22:17 that he will not rest with human sin. 22:17-22:18 He opposes it. 22:18-22:23 And that his wrath simply means his total opposition to sin. 22:23-22:28 And if he wasn't angry and sin against us, then there'd be no hope for us. 22:28-22:34 But when the Bible speaks about 'saved from', what it means is saved from the negative consequences 22:34-22:35 of the wrath. 22:35-22:36 Yes, indeed. 22:36-22:38 I'll put it another way. 22:38-22:44 When we talk about the love of God, I remember God's love is holy. 22:44-22:47 You cannot separate the love of God from the holiness of God. 22:47-22:52 And the love of God which comes and redeems us and draws us to himself. 22:52-22:56 There's nothing else but holy love that resists sin. 22:56-22:59 And the two go hand in hand. 22:59-23:04 If we separate them, then we get into all this weird stuff that the Church does about 23:04-23:05 the sheer love of God. 23:05-23:08 You know, we forget all about the judgments. 23:08-23:09 No. 23:09-23:11 It's a holy love. 23:11-23:15 We hold the two together. 23:15-23:24 We're saved from the wrath of God, but by God's grace, saved by the wrath of God. 23:24-23:25 Thank you. 23:25-23:31 In your paper, you write that you make a lot of the work of the Spirit. 23:31-23:38 That's by the Spirit we participate in the new creation. 23:38-23:49 But you also say that the new creation is present in the person of Christ. 23:49-23:52 You speak about what Christ did on earth. 23:52-23:59 So how exactly are we to think of the relation between what Christ has done then and what 23:59-24:01 the Spirit does now? 24:01-24:14 Well, of course, in Romans 8, he talks about the law of the Spirit of Christ. 24:14-24:21 We are living after Pentecost so that, yes, we depend altogether on the Holy Spirit. 24:21-24:28 But the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit who brings us to Jesus Christ and makes Christ 24:28-24:36 real in our lives so that, as you read what Paul says about the law of the Spirit, it's 24:36-24:40 always the law of the Spirit in Christ. 24:40-24:45 You can't separate the presence of the Trinity so that the Holy Spirit is at work and Christ 24:45-24:48 is at work and Christ is at work through the Holy Spirit. 24:48-24:56 The Holy Spirit is constantly revealing Christ, causing Christ to be born within us, making 24:56-24:57 us more like Christ. 24:57-25:02 I don't know if that answers your question. 25:02-25:12 Yes, so when we think of the Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit are always at work at each 25:12-25:13 and every single act. 25:13-25:14 Absolutely. 25:14-25:18 So when we think of the Spirit working in us, that is Christ working in us through the 25:18-25:19 Spirit. 25:19-25:20 And also the Father. 25:20-25:21 Yes. 25:21-25:27 As Jesus said, "The Father works and I work." 25:27-25:35 Paul talks about, we have to come to terms with the law of the Spirit of life. 25:35-25:36 It's not our life. 25:36-25:38 It's not the way we would. 25:38-25:40 It's a question of words. 25:40-25:46 It's not our use of law, actually, because the law of the Spirit of life is something 25:46-25:47 total, complete. 25:47-25:51 It's not Roman law. 25:51-25:53 Something infinitely greater than that. 25:53-26:01 Because we're dealing with a transforming power of the Spirit, transforming Christ into 26:01-26:03 Christ in a totally new dimension. 26:03-26:09 But no, we cannot separate the work of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 26:09-26:13 The law goes together. 26:13-26:20 When we speak of the law of the Spirit, would it be a better translation of that verse in 26:20-26:30 Romans 8 to speak of the order of the Spirit? 26:30-26:31 We could do. 26:31-26:33 It's a question of words. 26:33-26:37 Our words don't really capture what is the reality. 26:37-26:43 I mean, when we're quoting, as I've said, if you're going to quote Romans, it's the 26:43-26:46 law of the Spirit of life in Christ. 26:46-26:55 So is that the way you and I would normally use them all? 26:55-27:02 It might be helpful to use order, but again, I want to be a bit cautious about the use 27:02-27:10 of the word because it's a totally dynamic situation where the Holy Spirit is at work 27:10-27:16 and Christ is at work with the Father. 27:16-27:27 I find it is a different way of words to convey something which is so real. 27:27-27:31 Order could be, but it depends how we interpret that word order. 27:31-27:32 Is it all-embracing? 27:32-27:40 Because that's what Paul is saying, something that's total. 27:40-27:51 The reason I ask that is that I've found that people who make a lot of the Spirit are sometimes 27:51-27:59 the least reliable of people because they think, "I'm in the Spirit and the Spirit told 27:59-28:00 me to do this." 28:00-28:06 So they're not faithful to what the other promises are. 28:06-28:12 That's why I thought, "Well, maybe orders are better because order means that living 28:12-28:19 the Spirit doesn't mean a chaotic life, but a structured, ordered life." 28:19-28:23 That was the reason I asked you that. 28:23-28:25 No, I would accept that. 28:25-28:32 Remember that the Holy Spirit always takes us to Christ and takes us to the Word of God. 28:32-28:41 I've always used to say often that the Holy Spirit is tied to the Word of God. 28:41-28:44 Sometimes when people have talked about the Holy Spirit, "The Spirit told me to do this 28:44-28:49 and told me to do that," you wonder where the Word of God comes into all this situation. 28:49-28:53 But we mustn't separate Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 28:53-28:59 We mustn't separate the Spirit from the Word of God. 28:59-29:05 I've often pondered Proverbs 8 and the language. 29:05-29:13 I found the language, you know what Paul is saying, but it was so weak to try and convey 29:13-29:16 what he's really saying. 29:16-29:19 That's my thoughts about it. 29:19-29:21 Thank you. 29:21-29:24 You've raised the point about the Word of God. 29:24-29:31 You have a comment in your paper about the Theological Forum of Scotland. 29:31-29:37 You've argued that they've separated the written Word from the Word of God. 29:37-29:44 They argue that we need to look through the Bible to see the Word of God. 29:44-29:50 You're arguing that they've separated it because they argue that the Word of God was written 29:50-29:54 in the context of the time, but we can look through it now. 29:54-30:00 How exactly do we hold together the Word of God and the words of the Bible? 30:00-30:04 How are we faithful to both? 30:04-30:08 Some of you may have read that report that came to our General Assembly two weeks ago 30:08-30:12 from the Theological Forum. 30:12-30:15 A misnomer. 30:15-30:21 I found the most dreadful theological document I've ever seen come to the Church of Scotland. 30:21-30:24 When I read it, I was horrified. 30:24-30:28 I was really appalled at it. 30:28-30:35 In my distant days in philosophy, I studied under John MacMullan. 30:35-30:40 John used to say to us many times in the Honours class, "When you hear someone speaking, don't 30:40-30:44 pay quite so much attention to what they say, but keep asking yourself, 'What are their 30:44-30:51 peace oppositions, uncritical peace oppositions, which allow them to say what they're saying?'" 30:51-30:52 I found that very helpful. 30:52-30:59 I often confess that in the General Assembly when the minister speaks, "What are his peace 30:59-31:00 oppositions?" 31:00-31:12 If you look at that article, he starts right away that we look through the Bible. 31:12-31:18 John speaks to us in our hearts and consciences and so on and so on, so he doesn't refer to 31:18-31:20 the Bible anymore. 31:20-31:25 This to me is a death of a… 31:25-31:34 Now, when we look at the Word of God, we cannot separate the Word of God and the written Word. 31:34-31:39 The Word of God is not identical with the written Word, otherwise that's fundamentalism. 31:39-31:44 But equally, the Word of God is not separate. 31:44-31:48 There is a analogous relationship between the Word, the living Word of God, and the 31:48-31:52 written Word of God, analogous to the hypostatic union. 31:52-31:54 We can't separate it. 31:54-31:58 And if we separate it, we're in a sea of trouble. 31:58-32:05 So that that whole document that came to the General Assembly talked about, we see through 32:05-32:12 the Word of God, and so we can accept same-sex relationships, etc., etc. 32:12-32:20 And if you do that, and God speaks to your conscience, you and mine, how do we correct 32:20-32:23 what we believe? 32:23-32:26 The only way to correct is to ask other Christians and tradition. 32:26-32:33 And you're back in the old Roman doctrine, which was a death about the Reformers, a dreadful 32:33-32:34 situation. 32:34-32:38 And that lies at the heart of that document. 32:38-32:42 No, we take the Bible seriously. 32:42-32:48 But the Word of God is not identical by any means with the written Word, and yet it cannot 32:48-32:49 be separated. 32:49-32:56 There is a real relationship, so that when we read and seek to understand, that what 32:56-33:03 we do seek to understand must always be guided and corrected by the written Word. 33:03-33:08 So I don't like that word, seeing through. 33:08-33:13 I am very grateful that when I was a boy of six, my mother took me to Canada and said, 33:13-33:19 "If you read the Bible three chapters a day, from Sunday you'll read the Bible every year. 33:19-33:25 But before you read the Bible, always pray and ask God who will speak to you through 33:25-33:26 it." 33:26-33:30 And she said, "When you grow up, you'll find many people will say terrible things about 33:30-33:31 the Bible. 33:31-33:37 But when you hear God speaking, you'll never doubt this is God's Word." 33:37-33:41 And I've taken that seriously all my life. 33:41-33:47 God speaks to us through the Word of God, the Scripture. 33:47-33:54 And yet that Word of God may not be separated from the written Word, but not identical. 33:54-33:55 So I'm very cautious. 33:55-34:00 I don't like that word reading through, but that's the theological report. 34:00-34:07 They made a great song about reading through Scripture, so that when you read through Scripture 34:07-34:12 and you accept homosexuality, you forget all about the Bible. 34:12-34:15 There's no more references to it. 34:15-34:19 It was a dreadful document, I think a dreadful theological document. 34:19-34:23 What were the presuppositions? 34:23-34:33 A bit long to point the ball out. 34:33-34:35 A host of them. 34:35-34:37 We can perhaps come to that later. 34:37-34:39 I'll be very glad to actually. 34:39-34:46 One final question just for this more formal part of the session. 34:46-34:54 You've spoken about the importance of the new creation. 34:54-35:03 Have you any thoughts on how, as a church, and how perhaps we as individuals can help 35:03-35:10 to recover this whole aspect of new creation in our thinking? 35:10-35:19 This will all come from our understanding of Christ. 35:19-35:26 Jesus is man, but this is the mighty Son of God who's broken into this world. 35:26-35:33 Now it's incredible, actually, when we ponder it, that we'd be taken for granted. 35:33-35:38 But it's a staggering fact that God who created the sun, the moon, the stars, the whole of 35:38-35:46 creation actually broke into this world and became a man in flesh and blood, took your 35:46-35:49 humanity and mine. 35:49-35:58 So that even as a child at the cradle, when he was dying of the cross, he was keeping 35:58-36:00 in being the whole of creation. 36:00-36:06 As Job said, if he was to his spirit, we die. 36:06-36:16 Now if we had really ponder who Christ is as a mighty creator redeeming God, I think 36:16-36:21 that should transform our understanding in our ministry that this is his world, he's 36:21-36:24 come into it, he's broken into it. 36:24-36:32 Here is this dramatic miracle of a new creation that is here and now in the presence of Christ, 36:32-36:36 and he's come to renew us in the whole of creation. 36:36-36:42 I think it's a matter of, dare I say, really, can I say, rediscovering Christ? 36:42-36:51 We're always rediscovering Christ, but in all his magnificence and density. 36:51-36:54 Thank you, God. 36:54-37:01 All of the ministers will say and preach and never mention Christ. 37:01-37:10 I attended a funeral a week in Barbies, service taken, but I would have to say that four times 37:10-37:16 when a minister has died in the harness and the press police take that service, I've come 37:16-37:23 out chilled, no mention of Christ, no mention of the resurrection. 37:23-37:25 And what were we all about? 37:25-37:28 The whole of our faith from beginning to end is Christ. 37:28-37:30 Without Christ, you are now lost. 37:30-37:32 And did Christ have everything? 37:32-37:46 It's a matter, I think, of rediscovering and going on and on, understanding more of Christ. 37:46-37:47 Thank you very much. 37:47-37:53 That's been a splendid opening to our retreats. 37:53-37:55 So let's thank our speaker in the usual way. 37:55-37:57 [APPLAUSE]