Firbush Retreats Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush. ----------- June 14, 2018 Firbush Retreat Summer 2018 Jennifer Floether, "The Place of Robust Art in Theology" https://tftorrance.org/node/1641 The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript. ------------ 00:00-00:02 ...to go up, is that right? 00:02-00:05 No, I want to go to one after five. 00:05-00:07 Which is blank. 00:07-00:09 No, no, never mind. 00:09-00:12 It will be a bit chaotic. 00:12-00:18 The slides are not coordinated with the very few things I want to say. 00:18-00:28 I just want to speak briefly about the place of robust art in theology. 00:28-00:42 Art is often seen, especially in the church, as a resource, a tool, a vehicle whose function is to... 00:42-00:49 primary function is to signify something else, something other than art. 00:49-00:59 It's a sign, it's a tool to say something that art actually doesn't say. 00:59-01:02 Here art's purpose is not to make art. 01:02-01:10 Primary purpose is to tell a story, to make a political statement, to express an emotion, 01:10-01:17 to make a political point, propaganda. 01:17-01:23 And to serve another purpose. 01:23-01:34 But if making art is, as Bob was saying, as rational and objective as doing maths and theology, 01:34-01:46 then how we engage with making art surely is governed in the same way by obedience to its particular kind of intelligibility. 01:46-01:58 In faithfulness to its internal logic, which can't be read off the surface any more than the Bible can be read off the surface. 01:58-02:07 We need to penetrate beyond its surface and engage with what underpins it. 02:07-02:16 And so if we use it to serve another discourse, what's happened to our faithfulness, to its truth, 02:16-02:27 what's happened to our commitment, our obedience to its internal logic? 02:27-02:33 Can we serve two masters, in other words, or should art be made to serve two masters? 02:33-02:35 Well, if you're a genius, you can do both. 02:35-02:46 You can make great art which also tells a story in such a way as to make it appear as though you're doing both at the same time. 02:46-02:48 But don't let's be fooled. 02:48-02:53 Great artists make, first and foremost, great art. 02:53-03:02 And when they are true to the form, form in art is composition, colour, line, tone. 03:02-03:04 There's a long list. 03:04-03:10 If they're true to that, the content will be true too. 03:10-03:14 It will be carried with that. 03:14-03:21 So if you're a genius, you can get away with it, but very few of us are. 03:21-03:26 Art, for the purists like me, is about art. 03:26-03:35 And we would say that form is everything and content comes very, very far down the list of priorities, 03:35-03:39 along with the frame and the gallery and the price. 03:39-03:42 So that's one side of what I want to say. 03:42-03:48 And I think related to that is what Bob was saying about wispy, what was it? 03:48-03:52 Wispy abstractions, is that right? 03:52-04:02 When we allow art to become the servant of a particular spiritual or religious or political agenda, 04:02-04:05 something happens to it. 04:05-04:10 And in the case of Christian art, at the moment, in contemporary Christian art, 04:10-04:17 there is a trend towards representing the non-physical, 04:17-04:25 towards painting the unpaintable or depicting the undepictable, 04:25-04:36 producing spiritualized, abstract, floaty sort of art that in some ways meant to convey the spiritual dimension 04:36-04:42 of say the risen Christ or his healings. 04:42-04:48 And this can lead, I would have said, to art of questionable quality. 04:48-04:54 And it raises the question of whether or not we are making unto ourselves graven images. 04:54-04:58 What do I do here? I press B, do I Jeremy? 04:58-05:01 So we have here the Caravaggio. 05:01-05:08 I wanted to raise that because it falls into that earlier thing I was saying about making art serve another purpose. 05:08-05:12 Most people would turn around, look at that and say, 05:12-05:17 'He was serving the purpose of the narrative of the calling of Matthew.' 05:17-05:25 I'd like to put it to you that if Caravaggio's patron had been Roman Abramovich, 05:25-05:29 who owned until a very rich man, owns a football club, 05:29-05:39 and if he had been commissioned to depict the manager appointing the new striker, 05:39-05:44 would that have affected the quality of this painting? 05:44-05:47 I'll leave that question with you. 05:47-05:57 So I'd like to just finish with the main question, which is what is the place of content in specifically Christian art? 05:57-06:02 Is there such a thing as Christian art? 06:02-06:10 And so just because I've forgotten completely to do these slides, I don't know how to, oh yeah right. 06:10-06:16 The Ascension. 06:16-06:21 Contemporary. 06:21-06:26 Ascension. 06:26-06:33 No, resurrection, ascension, resurrection. 06:33-06:39 I'm not making any comments here. 06:39-06:44 Rembrandt, of course, Peter's mother-in-law, and here a very popular Christian artist. 06:44-06:54 His name is Coder, he's German. 06:54-07:00 The resurrected Christ. 07:00-07:05 So how do I go blank again? 07:05-07:15 Thank you. 07:15-07:25 Shall I unplug? 07:25-07:27 All right. 07:27-07:30 Okay, somebody's going to have to keep time because I lose track. 07:30-07:34 All right, so Bob you can. 07:34-07:37 Okay, five minutes. 07:37-07:38 This is a huge topic. 07:38-07:41 I went four years to a Christian liberal arts college, 07:41-07:45 and we talked about this for four years and didn't come to a final conclusion, 07:45-07:48 but I've worked on it ever since. 07:48-07:53 I can say one thing we need to consider, and it's been a theme actually, 07:53-07:58 based on a lecture that I gave at New College just a few days ago, 07:58-08:01 considering the person. 08:01-08:06 Actually we had a little conversation, Jennifer and I, about this. 08:06-08:08 The person is the one. 08:08-08:09 There's two objects, right? 08:09-08:13 There's God and God's revelation, and there's creation. 08:13-08:14 There's two different things. 08:14-08:17 I think we're on the same page with that. 08:17-08:20 But then there's the person, that's you and me individually, 08:20-08:24 or a corporate person, the church, let's say. 08:24-08:27 And we're contemplating two objects that are not the same thing. 08:27-08:32 And we have access to the object of who God is, especially in Jesus Christ, 08:32-08:34 the living word and his written word. 08:34-08:38 And so there's a revelation, so that's our data. 08:38-08:40 We look to this. 08:40-08:45 And we have kind of methods, ways of interacting with this God 08:45-08:47 and speaking about this God. 08:47-08:49 And then, okay, but we also have creation. 08:49-08:51 So when we're talking about the disciplines, 08:51-08:53 we're talking about some aspect of creation. 08:53-08:58 But the common point here, and Tom brings this out, is the person. 08:58-09:04 The person is coming to know God and say something about God 09:04-09:12 and actually interact as a person in prayer, in worship, in obedience to God. 09:12-09:16 So there's actually a real relation, a personal relationship between persons. 09:16-09:17 That's happening there. 09:17-09:22 But there's also a relation going on between us and the artistic medium 09:22-09:25 or the area of discipline. 09:25-09:30 So if it's politics or it's communication or it's photography 09:30-09:32 or it's whatever it is, right? 09:32-09:34 That's an aspect of creation. 09:34-09:37 So the common point is the person. 09:37-09:43 And this is why there's both an analogy of my knowing God 09:43-09:48 and my knowing creation, because it's one and the same. 09:48-09:52 It's the person that is involved in both. 09:52-09:56 And Bob's talked about human language, right? 09:56-09:59 We're using, and we can use language to do both. 09:59-10:03 I mean, a photographer can talk about the photography as well as do it, right? 10:03-10:08 We can talk about art, which we've been talking about, as well as do it. 10:08-10:11 It's doing and talking. It's both. 10:11-10:18 But because there's a person who is involved, then we have -- 10:18-10:21 and of course the person is a part of creation, right? 10:21-10:23 So I have a little diagram here. 10:23-10:32 I can kind of view, draw two ovals with the person is here 10:32-10:36 and the creation is there, and then another oval this way, 10:36-10:38 enveloping the person again. 10:38-10:41 So you have two ovals, two different objects. 10:41-10:44 What you don't want to do is confuse these two objects 10:44-10:48 and say creation is God or God is creation, 10:48-10:50 because then you'll ruin both of them. 10:50-10:52 I think this is part of Jennifer's point of view, 10:52-10:55 but also part of Bob's point of view. 10:55-10:58 So now we'll bring in a discussion between I and my son. 10:58-11:00 He should actually be up here for this part. 11:00-11:02 I forgot part of the discussion. 11:02-11:10 But here's how this went, is that if you do theology as a person interacting with that, 11:10-11:16 without also a person interacting in this way with creation, 11:16-11:19 what's going to happen is your theology disconnected. 11:19-11:24 It's going to float free, right, denying our humanity, 11:24-11:29 denying our rootedness in the human time and space, 11:29-11:33 which is not ultimate, but it's the reality we're given. 11:33-11:37 What will happen is that theology will have a tendency to float off. 11:37-11:44 And so like certain ones who found early New Testament manuscripts in the papyri, 11:44-11:47 they thought they discovered a new kind of language, 11:47-11:50 the Holy Spirit Greek, all right, 11:50-11:54 because it wasn't like the classical Greek that they had many manuscripts of. 11:54-11:57 Well, when they looked into it, guess what they discovered? 11:57-12:01 It wasn't Holy Spirit Greek, it was truck driver Greek. 12:01-12:07 It was every day what we now call koine, ordinary, shared, common Greek. 12:07-12:11 God did not speak in a special language to us. 12:11-12:13 It was Holy Spirit. 12:13-12:16 So you see, that was kind of like cut off. 12:16-12:20 So it can float free, and then it becomes a kind of secret knowledge 12:20-12:23 and a gnosticism is what Greg and I came up with, 12:23-12:29 the kind of gnosticism of this knowledge that was disconnected from the creation, 12:29-12:36 that where we could become transcendent and leave the earthly behind. 12:36-12:43 So our involvement in creation every day and creaking bodies and stuff like this ground us. 12:43-12:48 They keep us back, but also help us grow up as well in that. 12:48-12:50 So theology without the arts, we said, 12:50-12:55 can lead to a gnosticism and a reductionism of theology. 12:55-12:57 So that's not good. 12:57-13:00 But on the other hand, because it's the same person dealing with God, 13:00-13:04 if we just are persons who deal with creation, 13:04-13:10 but we're neglecting the revelation of God for one reason or another, 13:10-13:15 the danger there is it can lead to idolatry. 13:15-13:17 And that also has been mentioned here, 13:17-13:22 is that because then we can so concentrate on the arts as salvation, 13:22-13:24 the arts as true spirituality, let's say, 13:24-13:32 or any other interaction with creation, sports, recreation, consumerism, 13:32-13:37 political party, political ideals, any of these things, 13:37-13:43 what saves us from idolatry. 13:43-13:47 It's coming into contact with the real God. 13:47-13:53 And that then has the corrective of preventing us from being idolaters, 13:53-13:57 that is, worshipping something about creation. 13:57-14:02 So the two need each other in this kind of counteractive way, 14:02-14:05 meeting in the person that's a created being, 14:05-14:07 interacting with other parts of creation, 14:07-14:12 and with God through revelation. 14:12-14:14 So we need to remember the person in the middle. 14:14-14:20 C.S. Lewis had a way of saying this that I've appreciated for many years. 14:20-14:24 He said there are many -- okay, so this kind of good is the -- 14:24-14:28 so it's called the relationship with God, the infinite good. 14:28-14:31 And that's a worship relationship, right? 14:31-14:34 Because if our relationship with creation is the same, 14:34-14:38 and it was a worship, really, we call that idolatry. 14:38-14:44 But what he said is, so you have the transcendent goodness of God, 14:44-14:47 and then you have a created goodness. 14:47-14:50 Now, you can call them both goodnesses, but they're different, 14:50-14:52 created and uncreated. 14:52-14:54 And you don't want to confuse those. 14:54-14:57 But what happens is, what Lewis pointed out is, 14:57-15:03 when the good floats off on its own and has true autonomy in the person, 15:03-15:12 true autonomy, all right, then the danger is that it will be no -- 15:12-15:19 will not have the power to rescue itself from the pull of temptation and evil towards idolatry. 15:19-15:25 So his point was that the redeeming grace of God 15:25-15:30 that meets us in our time and space and in us and in our person 15:30-15:36 and meets us personally in it is needed to prevent what is created good 15:36-15:40 from being captured and used by evil and corrupted. 15:40-15:45 So all the created goods really need to be sanctified and purified 15:45-15:52 as the Christian interacts with it and makes use of it such as it is 15:52-15:56 or doesn't make use of it such as it is and all. 15:56-16:03 Everything needs to be -- so now we're back to my theme, creation and redemption. 16:03-16:05 Creation and redemption. 16:05-16:08 And that creation does not redeem itself. 16:08-16:16 It has no power to protect itself from the pull of evil and corruption and idolatry. 16:16-16:23 And so we need to bring together as persons and as communities then, 16:23-16:31 then to remember both creation and incarnation, but also redemption of all things 16:31-16:33 because creation has no power. 16:33-16:39 In fact, it's already captive even though the goodness is still remnant there. 16:39-16:41 But creation and redemption. 16:41-16:47 And we are the ones, individuals, recognizing that and living in that, 16:47-16:54 then act accordingly towards creation and towards God. 16:54-16:57 And so in that sense then what does it summarize? 16:57-17:03 Calvin's way is one way of putting it, is creation is the theater of God's glory, 17:03-17:06 the place where we voice creation's praise. 17:06-17:11 We interact with it in such a way that it is glorified. 17:11-17:14 It's glory, its glory. 17:14-17:22 It's glory is brought out as we properly learn and discover how to interact with it. 17:22-17:24 It's glory is brought out. 17:24-17:29 And the final analogy I'll bring back to C.S. Lewis as well. 17:29-17:35 As he said, as God interacts with us as his children, what does he do with his glory? 17:35-17:37 Does he dominate us with his glory? 17:37-17:39 Does he control us with his glory? 17:39-17:41 Does he demand of us his glory? 17:41-17:42 Do you know what he does? 17:42-17:48 He reaches down and lifts us up to share in his glory. 17:48-17:51 To become the sons and daughters of God. 17:51-17:55 He lifts us up, loving us with the same love. 17:55-17:57 You've heard that several times. 17:57-17:59 Loving us with the same love. 17:59-18:06 So in a way God is domesticating us so that we might live in his house forever 18:06-18:09 and not mess up the floor. 18:09-18:12 And you see Lewis said this is what we do towards creation as well. 18:12-18:14 As God does this with us, what do we do? 18:14-18:16 We turn to creation. 18:16-18:17 And we don't dominate it. 18:17-18:18 We don't control it. 18:18-18:20 And in that sense we don't even use it. 18:20-18:21 What do we do? 18:21-18:24 We discover what it is and we grab onto it. 18:24-18:26 Well, grab might be too aggressive. 18:26-18:28 But we embrace it. 18:28-18:29 How about that? 18:29-18:31 We embrace it. 18:31-18:39 And we lift it up so that its glory shines forth. 18:39-18:42 And so do you see how we are being in the image of Christ 18:42-18:45 as God reaches down and lifts us up? 18:45-18:49 We then turn and reach out to creation and lift it up. 18:49-18:51 And of course, one another. 18:51-19:06 [Applause] 19:06-19:08 I have to summarise everything. 19:08-19:11 Yes, the final word. 19:11-19:15 So the relation between theology and other subjects. 19:15-19:20 We have to be true to each and respect each for what it is. 19:20-19:30 Now, with regard to art, that means that when Jesus was here on earth, there was no halo. 19:30-19:34 There was nothing that people could know about him by looking at him. 19:34-19:35 That he was God. 19:35-19:40 Even the disciples did not know until the resurrection. 19:40-19:43 He came to be fully man. 19:43-19:47 So if we are going to be true to what actually was, 19:47-19:53 we cannot have a Christ with any halos, any kind of spiritualising of God. 19:53-19:57 We have to be true to the subject matter. 19:57-20:01 But it occurs to me that just as Jesus used, 20:01-20:04 in the context where people could not understand what he was on about, 20:04-20:09 or even begin to see the kingdom, he used parables to get them thinking. 20:09-20:15 So it appears to be the best Christian art would be to have the very, very best Christian art 20:15-20:18 with no explicit Christian content. 20:18-20:24 But the better the art is the art, the more you could do this. 20:24-20:26 Pause the question within the art. 20:26-20:30 Something to make people think, why is that person doing that? 20:30-20:34 And as it leads them on, and point her. 20:34-20:38 Because you cannot have any explicit pointing. 20:38-20:42 I mean, you can depict a biblical scene, and if you do it in good art, that is fine. 20:42-20:46 But that is one thing. 20:46-20:52 In terms of music, this is a personal opinion. 20:52-20:56 But for me, music has to be real music. 20:56-21:04 For him it has to be a good tune, it has to be good words, it has to be good theology. 21:04-21:13 And so much music for me is tuneless, and the words are naff, and the theology is duff. 21:13-21:17 Pardon the technical language. 21:17-21:22 But it is what is interesting, but also there is a certain type of hymn, 21:22-21:26 I call it 'lose myself in God' music. 21:26-21:31 And someone I know very well, who used to be an occult, 21:31-21:39 says that the type of music that is often rehearsed and sung in Christian circles, 21:39-21:51 in certain Christian circles, is uncannily like the kind of repetitive, mindless, tuneless music they sang in the cult. 21:51-21:59 It is designed to mould the mind, to take away the mind, control the mind. 21:59-22:03 And so there is a real question there. 22:03-22:11 Music in hymns to me has to be real music, it has to be good words, and good theology. 22:11-22:23 And I believe very much that if we have good theology, and good theology is for all of us, 22:23-22:31 and good theology is simply trying to think everything out consistently from a Christocentric viewpoint. 22:31-22:34 And I think this is very, very important. 22:34-22:41 If you are painting or doing any skill, like cooking, the really good cook doesn't need a recipe, 22:41-22:45 they just add a bit of that, a bit of that, they taste it not quite right, 22:45-22:49 and by feeling judgment, they know when it is the right thing. 22:49-22:53 Or if you are a painter, I'm not a painter but I'm sure this is what happens, 22:53-22:58 you just paint it a little bit and then it's not quite right, you paint it this way, you add a bit here, 22:58-23:06 and you are guided by your instinctive good judgment and feeling and experience for the whole, what looks right. 23:06-23:09 And you can't say how you do that exactly. 23:09-23:19 So with theology, we are trying in everything we do, in our language and the way we behave, 23:19-23:28 we are tweaking things all the time to make everything we do point to Christ in a Christocentric way, even little things. 23:28-23:39 Some of T.F's prayers, for example, when he was moderator, he said, "Help us God to do this." 23:39-23:46 Uncle David is making a point of saying that we should never pray, ask God to help us to do something. 23:46-23:51 Because if we use that word 'help', we are effectively saying, "I can do it, but I need a bit of help." 23:51-23:54 We should say, "grant us." 23:54-24:02 So that's just a tiny point, but in so many little ways, we need to think consistently Christocentrically, 24:02-24:14 and little by little here and there, in everything we do, in our choice of words, in little gestures, etc., think Christocentrically. 24:14-24:29 When we learn to think no God truly, then we are transformed as a whole, and that will inevitably have an effect on what we do. 24:29-24:39 What you said, Jeremy, in answer to Jock's question, was perfect, do good art, and the two go together. 24:39-24:48 There's no explicit, you cannot point explicitly to what it is about theology that would demand a certain type of change to art, 24:48-24:58 because they're autonomous, and yet a vision of the whole knowledge of God, when it's seen, 24:58-25:07 will undoubtedly give you a deeper, richer focus of what you're doing in the physical world. 25:07-25:11 I think that's the main thing I want to say. 25:11-25:13 Do you want to add anything? 25:13-25:15 No, no, I'll keep adding at the moment. 25:15-25:16 OK.