Firbush Retreats

Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush.

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June 13, 2018
Firbush Retreat Summer 2018
Q&R
https://tftorrance.org/node/1641

The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript.

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00:00-00:07
Let's see. I've been asked to moderate questions.


00:07-00:11
For now we'll take about ten minutes or so to do that.


00:11-00:15
So I will kind of recognize you following Robert's rules, I suppose.


00:15-00:18
Alright. Yes, go ahead.


00:18-00:23
Just to follow up on that, I'm not disagreeing with you that that's a Christ-like symbol.


00:23-00:31
It's just interesting that it's passive obedience in the sense of being what Adam was meant to be and directing it towards him.


00:31-00:35
I think it's a great connection. I'm fascinated with it.


00:35-00:39
I hadn't thought of that. I hadn't thought of the pose of the hand.


00:39-00:43
Let's work on that.


00:43-00:47
Someone else?


00:47-00:53
Just because you've got those sorts of hands, you've got the God pointing and you've got the Adam-wounding.


00:53-00:55
Yes.


00:55-00:59
Got it both. That's what I'm saying. It's both the hand of God.


00:59-01:01
It's clear this is divine.


01:01-01:06
I mean, Cara of Edges, massive, robust theology of incarnation.


01:06-01:08
My goodness, doesn't get much stronger.


01:08-01:14
And fleshiness and everything, you know, fingers pointing into the Thomas going into the womb or whatever.


01:14-01:17
But it's also Adam, you see, you have both together.


01:17-01:20
You have both together. That's exactly it.


01:20-01:26
Yes.


01:26-01:34
One of the things that music really helps me to contemplate is the nature of history.


01:34-01:37
Whether it's my own life or history in a larger sense.


01:37-01:40
And all the comments you made about order building us.


01:40-01:41
Yeah.


01:41-01:43
Could you say more about what you mean by that?


01:43-01:57
So that aspect of music and time, the future being not arbitrary but not predictable beforehand.


01:57-02:00
But in retrospect, there's a...


02:00-02:02
I see what you're speaking upon. Yes, indeed.


02:02-02:10
And so I just wanted to make a request that you might feel free to share about that in the times that come ahead.


02:10-02:14
In tomorrow when I'm speaking about... Yeah, no, a great deal.


02:14-02:20
I'm doing Saint Humbach tomorrow and I'll look more carefully at that into play.


02:20-02:24
In the meantime, just think about Pentecost. That's my great example of that.


02:24-02:28
That there they are and these extraordinary things happen.


02:28-02:32
And at the very least, who... Is it Glossolalia?


02:32-02:35
Well, perhaps, but it's certainly hearing disciples speak in that language.


02:35-02:39
They don't understand. It seems arbitrary.


02:39-02:42
The Holy Spirit seems to be doing something. It doesn't make any sense.


02:42-02:44
"Hey, they're drunk." Do you remember?


02:44-02:49
So what does Peter do? He doesn't say... He said, "No, they're not drunk."


02:49-02:54
He then... The sermon shows God's consistency in faithfulness.


02:54-02:58
He doesn't say, "Oh, this was predicted in every detail." It's not that banal.


02:58-03:03
It's the God who's been faithful to you. He is the one.


03:03-03:09
"You crucified him and God raised him from the dead and he has poured out this which you now see and hear."


03:09-03:15
So he's... Now he's setting this event within a narrative that they know very well.


03:15-03:18
But he's not doing what we might say, "Oh, it was all predicted in every detail


03:18-03:20
and we could have seen it coming if we just looked at the scriptures."


03:20-03:24
Not that simple. It's never that simple.


03:24-03:28
And with music, the best kind of music, you have both of those together.


03:28-03:33
Worst kind of music is boringly predictable or so arbitrary you just give up after a bit.


03:33-03:36
"There's no sense here. What's the point?" Which is bad composition.


03:36-03:40
So music exposes that reality to me so...


03:40-03:45
Indeed. At all sorts of levels, not just intellectual levels, but we kind of feel that.


03:45-03:51
And it's built into life after all, isn't it? I mean, it should be built into every marriage.


03:51-03:54
Yes. Also, I need to set the record straight.


03:54-03:55
Oh, sorry.


03:55-03:58
The bibliography does not have that.


03:58-03:59
Oh, it doesn't?


03:59-04:08
I double-check. But I was thinking of the only thing we have is towards this article on Bart as...


04:08-04:11
The Bart, yes, which I also will speak about tomorrow.


04:11-04:16
It was on a cassette. I remember some people...


04:16-04:19
We need to dig that one up some more.


04:19-04:24
It was really very interesting because he wasn't pretending he knew anything about music.


04:24-04:28
He was saying, "Look, I know bits and pieces. This is the way I would think about music as a theologian."


04:28-04:30
Sort of helped me a bit.


04:30-04:33
And it was superb, actually. I learned a great deal.


04:33-04:39
And we have James Torrance's handout on worship, but only 16 of 20-some pages.


04:39-04:40
Oh, right.


04:40-04:41
Some pages in the same.


04:41-04:44
I've still got more. I'll let you have it.


04:44-04:45
Love to have it.


04:45-04:53
Paris, can I say further more about this here? Like Christ saying, "Yield your ears to hear."


04:53-04:57
And you say, "Hearing comes into you. We listen to something."


04:57-05:01
And there's something about music, the international language,


05:01-05:07
we certainly hear, there's a music in creation.


05:07-05:08
Yes, absolutely.


05:08-05:09
No sound.


05:09-05:10
Absolutely.


05:10-05:14
There's a way of a vibration or rhythm.


05:14-05:18
And sometimes I found it too interruptive. In the beginning, it was vibration.


05:18-05:19
Vibration, yes.


05:19-05:20
And out of that came.


05:20-05:21
Absolutely.


05:21-05:25
Tell me about that, why music does touch us in every way.


05:25-05:29
Gets to us beautifully put. I couldn't have put it better myself.


05:29-05:33
I think that's what the ancients, we're going to call them at the moment,


05:33-05:38
certainly Blade of Pythagoras, and then taken up through August and Boethius, through the Medi Iver,


05:38-05:44
they sense that rhythm is built into the creative world.


05:44-05:45
It's already there.


05:45-05:50
It's already there in our bodies so that we're going to resonate with that.


05:50-05:52
Walking, you know, whatever.


05:52-05:56
And of course, and pitch as well.


05:56-06:04
Music organizes pitch, it brings its pitches down to very identifiable pitches.


06:04-06:07
But even some of that you have in the creative order at large.


06:07-06:11
The ancients sensed all that, hence harmony of the spheres and all that.


06:11-06:14
They sensed that this world is already musical,


06:14-06:19
and the best kind of music so to speak taps into that and redoes it.


06:19-06:22
It's sad that that vision was gone.


06:22-06:24
Now, here's the story written at the very point.


06:24-06:27
There's a very distinguished musicologist I've got to know well


06:27-06:29
who's most definitely not a Christian and says so,


06:29-06:32
but we've got him in on a discussion group with theologians.


06:32-06:34
He's an extraordinary able man, lovely man.


06:34-06:41
And in one of his books he writes this fascinating paragraph where he says,


06:41-06:48
"If we now tend to reject the medieval vision and dismiss it as mere mythology or something,


06:48-06:56
maybe that's not because we're more wise, only because we're more self-absorbed."


06:56-06:58
Wow.


06:58-07:01
And I've challenged him, I said, "Dune, do you realize this thing called Christianity


07:01-07:04
actually has something kind of to say to that?"


07:04-07:07
He said, "Yes, but I can't buy into all the God stuff."


07:07-07:10
Okay, so he wants theology without God, which is a problem.


07:10-07:12
All right, it is a problem.


07:12-07:14
But that's a wonderful thing, you see.


07:14-07:18
And so it's lovely to hear in the musicological world or music theoretical world,


07:18-07:22
some people, not many, but some recognizing that.


07:22-07:26
But are we in any sense answerable to something beyond ourselves?


07:26-07:30
And those who sense, indeed, as you put it, a rhythm in creation and sound creation,


07:30-07:35
of course they recognize that, and that's why people started singing as they were speaking.


07:35-07:39
It was just kind of a natural mode of communication that they could sense all around them.


07:39-07:41
There we go.


07:41-07:43
Couple more maybe.


07:43-07:47
Jeremy, I'm not schooled in music, I had a classical or a modern,


07:47-07:52
and we listened to four of your talks, and I'm moving on to the next three,


07:52-07:58
on the confluence of music and theology.


07:58-08:04
So what about those types of music, which when you hear them,


08:04-08:08
and you don't normally choose them, actually make you sick?


08:08-08:10
Yes, right.


08:10-08:12
Is Shostakovich one of them? I don't know.


08:12-08:16
But you know, some of them on the staff, you know, people who do your electronic,


08:16-08:22
and you just feel inside, in whatever the inside, actually Robert,


08:22-08:27
you feel something bad. Can you address that?


08:27-08:30
All right, a few reflections on that.


08:30-08:33
First of all, I know of course what you're speaking about.


08:33-08:36
I think there's a time, it happens in the mid-20th century,


08:36-08:39
when certain kinds of music are experimented with,


08:39-08:43
and become so far removed from anything that anybody would ever want to listen to,


08:43-08:50
or perhaps so far removed from anything that would have some kind of sense,


08:50-08:54
or coherence, or logic, that it just becomes perverse.


08:54-08:57
That kind of music is very unpopular now, actually, interesting.


08:57-08:59
It's become less and less popular.


08:59-09:02
So that's the first thing I want to say. I think that's, as you say, just bad.


09:02-09:06
I think we can sort of learn from it, in its sheer madness.


09:06-09:09
I used to play a lot of that music, and I studied a lot of it,


09:09-09:12
but I would never spend much time with it now.


09:12-09:17
However, I think one needs to say, there are other kinds of music


09:17-09:21
that may include a great deal of dissonance,


09:21-09:26
and things that may appear deeply jarring,


09:26-09:28
and I think maybe the first thing we need to ask,


09:28-09:32
well, why are they doing that, and what can I learn?


09:32-09:35
So, with Shostakovich, for instance, his probably most jarring,


09:35-09:37
well, some of it, as jarring music,


09:37-09:41
is when he's in the midst of the Stalinist, gustliness,


09:41-09:44
and he feels he has to acknowledge that in some way,


09:44-09:47
and so he has this very interesting kind of irony thing of music


09:47-09:52
that sounds brutal, that may sound beautiful, even triumphant,


09:52-09:55
that's in fact quite brutal, and what he's trying to do very often


09:55-09:59
is covertly witness to the world, who's listening to his music,


09:59-10:01
what's going on in his own country.


10:01-10:04
So the times we need to pause, I think, and ask, what's happening here?


10:04-10:06
And then the other thing I want to say is,


10:06-10:08
when it comes to the Christian faith,


10:08-10:11
because we believe in the crucifixion,


10:11-10:15
and the sheer awfulness and ugliness and ghastliness of that,


10:15-10:21
if in the ecology of the music we listen to and take seriously,


10:21-10:24
there's nothing that sounds anything like that,


10:24-10:27
we are in danger of being a bit sentimental.


10:27-10:33
Which all we should say is, music can comfort us, console us,


10:33-10:37
boy, do I know that, especially recently.


10:37-10:40
But it can do lots of other things as well.


10:40-10:45
It can open up our eyes to aspects of the faith that we might rather forget,


10:45-10:48
and sometimes it takes a non-Christian to do that.


10:48-10:51
Long-winded answered a very important question.


10:51-10:54
I just have to go, but he writes some great music, you know.


10:54-10:57
People, he's a good, well, yeah, I know, there's some awful stuff.


10:57-11:01
He was a very vigorous atheist, I mean, strong atheist,


11:01-11:04
but a very humane kind of atheist, isn't it?


11:04-11:07
He's also brain neurotic, seriously neurotic.


11:07-11:09
Most musicians are neurotic.


11:09-11:11
[laughter]


11:11-11:13
Well, I think we'll bring our time to a close.


11:13-11:20
I've been asked to give thanks for our meal that's ahead of us next,


11:20-11:23
so let's take a moment to pray together.


11:23-11:26
My gracious God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,


11:26-11:31
Creator, Redeemer, Perfecter, the source of all life,


11:31-11:35
Lord, we thank you and praise you now for these words that we've heard.


11:35-11:40
May it feed us, feed our hearts, our minds, our bodies, our lives.


11:40-11:45
And may, as we go to partake of our food together here again,


11:45-11:49
give you praise and thanks for every good thing in all its variety,


11:49-11:55
in all its flavors, in all its powers to contribute to our health.


11:55-11:59
And may it draw us together as a fellowship in your name.


11:59-12:03
Many members brought together here at Furbush to turn towards you,


12:03-12:06
to listen to your word, to feed upon you,


12:06-12:11
to enjoy fellowship with one another, and now to join in this meal.


12:11-12:16
And so we give you thanks and praise in Christ's name. Amen.


12:16-12:18
Amen.


12:18-12:28
We're all pretty tired.


12:28-12:29
Yeah.


12:29-12:32
But we finished a little bit early.


12:32-12:33
Oh.


12:33-12:38
And just a good chance to say a few things about the center.


12:38-12:40
I have a question later.


12:40-12:41
Okay.


12:41-12:42
I'll catch up.


12:42-12:44
There's a room downstairs.


12:44-12:46
There's a ladies' toilet.


12:46-12:50
If you go straight in the door, then you come in off to the outside,


12:50-12:52
straight ahead.


12:52-12:54
A ladies' toilet and chairs.


12:54-12:58
And then if you go a door further, you come to a communal drying room,


12:58-12:59
if you need it.


12:59-13:02
And if you go right to the end of the room where we have coffee,


13:02-13:06
if you're a gent, you go around there, then you come to the gent showers.


13:06-13:10
And that leads into the same communal drying room.


13:10-13:15
So obviously we ask you to try to remember which door you went into.


13:15-13:23
If we try to keep as much time as possible,


13:23-13:27
and the purpose is a gorgeous building,


13:27-13:33
but it's wooden built and there's not much sound insulation.


13:33-13:39
So what you're saying in your cabin can be heard in the cabin that is a door.


13:39-13:43
So just be aware of that.


13:43-13:47
But also the doors do bang a bit.


13:47-13:51
They've taken out the things that are shut,


13:51-13:55
so that they can make them as quiet as possible for the fire safety regulations,


13:55-13:56
but they still bang a bit.


13:56-14:02
So if people can try to shut doors very quietly at night, it helps,


14:02-14:05
because it helps the people to sleep.


14:05-14:09
If I just mention the books,


14:09-14:17
that is on James Torrance,


14:17-14:19
and I hadn't read right through,


14:19-14:23
but it's a collection of essays published by GFT,


14:23-14:26
one of the issues of the Free Online Journal.


14:26-14:29
Every article I've read so far is just magnificent.


14:29-14:32
That's a magnificent book.


14:32-14:37
Books that, for my money, everybody should have


14:37-14:40
is The Mediation of Christ by Thomas Torrance,


14:40-14:44
and Worship Community and the Flying God of Grace by James Torrance,


14:44-14:48
published by IBP in the States.


14:48-14:50
It's out of print here.


14:50-14:53
It's a huge impact in the States, that second one.


14:53-14:57
And a book I can highly recommend, very highly recommend,


14:57-15:01
is Worshipping Trinity by Robin Parley.


15:01-15:05
It's written extremely well, it's very funny,


15:05-15:08
very conversational,


15:08-15:12
and he examines the hymns we use in worship,


15:12-15:15
whether they're Trinitarian or not.


15:15-15:20
It's very, very good theology, the same theology as we've been discussing here.


15:20-15:23
So I highly recommend that. That's half price.


15:23-15:26
Well, it's the other thing.


15:26-15:29
When he came to speak at the retreat,


15:29-15:33
he managed to get the author's discount,


15:33-15:37
and that's almost half price.


15:37-15:39
So there's several copies there.


15:39-15:42
And lots of other books.


15:42-15:45
The Incarnation Atonement, I would say,


15:45-15:48
I must read for anybody too, eventually.


15:48-15:55
If you want to know more on rationality, then Theological Science.


15:55-15:58
He was interested, Jeremy, you spoke about,


15:58-16:06
I quoted the English translation of that verse in Romans 12 about spiritual worship.


16:06-16:13
The actual Greek is logical worship, which is very interesting.


16:13-16:18
And that's precisely what this concept of rationality is about.


16:18-16:20
In the light of all that Christ has done,


16:20-16:24
this is our natural, logical response.


16:24-16:29
To offer ourselves our whole selves in worship.


16:29-16:34
We've had a fantastic first session from Jeremy.


16:34-16:37
Thank you very, very much again. Thank you.


16:37-16:43
I'm told to do a conflict tonight.


16:43-16:44
Oh good, very good.


16:44-16:46
I have chosen…


16:46-16:48
Oh lovely, well there you go.


16:48-16:50
How appropriate that is.


16:50-16:56
The Messiah is also about, and I wonder, I would like to have a hymn here.


16:56-16:57
A hymn, yes sure.


16:57-16:59
Could you maybe recommend me one?


16:59-17:01
Of course.


17:01-17:03
Have we got some words?


17:03-17:04
We've got books.


17:04-17:06
Yes of course, yes right.


17:06-17:08
Just maybe two persons because…


17:08-17:10
Yes, I was going to say, keep it tight.


17:10-17:12
No problem at all.


17:12-17:13
Would you mind, can I give you a seat?


17:13-17:14
Yes, that's fine.


17:14-17:15
What time is that?


17:15-17:16
It's nine o'clock?


17:16-17:17
Nine, yes, that'll be fine.


17:17-17:18
I'm awfully sorry, so…


17:18-17:19
And we're in here?


17:19-17:20
We're here.


17:20-17:21
That's good.


17:21-17:23
Someone's bringing some hymn books.


17:23-17:24
The hymn books are here.


17:24-17:26
Oh right, look up now. I've got you something there.


17:26-17:27
And it's right there.


17:27-17:29
It's right there. That would be lovely.


17:29-17:30
Perfect.


17:30-17:31
Nice idea.


17:31-17:32
We will distribute the hymn books before.


17:32-17:34
It's very important to sing. Lovely.


17:34-17:35
Thank you.


17:35-17:41
Wow, this is so amazing.


17:41-17:43
Beautiful, beautiful.


17:51-18:18
Oh yeah, let me just set this here.


18:22-18:32
Yeah, that's better.


18:34-18:48
Wow, powerful.


19:28-19:30
(people talking)


19:30-19:32
People sing