Firbush Retreats Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush. ----------- June 13, 2018 Firbush Retreat Summer 2018 Q&R https://tftorrance.org/node/1641 The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript. ------------ 00:00-00:04 You've got plenty of bubbling in your mind. Perhaps I could start off with one. 00:04-00:11 Not too hard a one. Be easy. You used the phrase Christian Gnostic pantheism. 00:11-00:17 In our earlier discussion when the divine spark came up and spirituality 00:17-00:25 came up, the idea of Gnosticism came to my mind as something we need to guard 00:25-00:31 against. I've always been impressed by a book by Harold Bloom, the literary critic 00:31-00:35 who claimed that all of American religion from the Mormons through to the 00:35-00:40 Southern Baptists was actually impregnated with Gnosticism. I don't know 00:40-00:44 whether you as an American want to accept that's true or not, but could you 00:44-00:48 just give us a little bit about the Gnostic problem, what we're trying to 00:48-00:53 resist there. I think that might be where we start. 00:53-00:59 So I'm not totally up on the New Testament scholarship on Gnosticism in the days of the 00:59-01:05 early church of which there were Gnostic movements at the time of 01:05-01:11 Jesus and afterwards. So I'll give a more general notion. So gnosis means to know. 01:11-01:18 Gnostic, gnosis, to know. So really what it is at rock bottom is salvation is 01:18-01:23 just to come to know something in your mind, an idea. Now it could be secret 01:23-01:28 knowledge. This often is what creates cults because there's a 01:28-01:35 secret source that only certain people are let in on. And then when you are, it 01:35-01:41 could be like a secret name or a secret word to say in a certain way that nobody 01:41-01:45 else knows. And that when you are given this under special circumstances, you 01:45-01:50 usually have to earn it in some way by doing something or being loyal to the 01:50-01:56 group or having certain rituals or things like this. But anyway, the key here 01:56-02:01 is you're seeking for the knowledge of something particular. It may be secret, it 02:01-02:06 might be public, but in the knowing of it, in the realization of it, you have now 02:06-02:14 entered into the state of salvation. And so it happens by a mental, cognitive, 02:14-02:20 verbal, or it could be a sound even, something like that. It doesn't 02:20-02:25 have to be understandable. It could be just a series of what you might say is 02:25-02:28 nonsense sounds. It doesn't correspond to anything in any language you've ever 02:28-02:34 heard anyway, something like that. And so you know, some teacher or somebody will 02:34-02:39 pass on this knowledge and there might be a ritual or a rite that goes with it 02:39-02:43 when you're given the knowledge. Now that's kind of when it's in a religious 02:43-02:48 context, but what makes it Christian is you see, so that's kind of 02:48-02:54 Gnosticism in a big general sort of way. All right, does that make sense? 02:54-03:00 So it's knowledge. Now I think part of this critique might be, if I can recall 03:00-03:05 something, I read some of that a long time ago, is the idea is if you see if we 03:05-03:10 Christians thought we're saved by our doctrines, that would be a Gnosticism. I 03:10-03:17 believe X. I mean it could even be I believe in the right doctrine of 03:17-03:23 incarnation, the one Gary told us about. See that would be a Gnosticism and I 03:23-03:29 would be a Gnostic teacher. And I get you all to follow me because I told you the 03:29-03:34 truth. You think, oh I'm saved by that by that doctrine. See that would be 03:34-03:38 actually a kind of Christianized doctrine because I used the Christian, you 03:38-03:43 know, the incarnation idea to kind of convince you of the knowledge. And then 03:43-03:47 if you've got the right idea, now I'm gonna have to sit down and tutor you 03:47-03:52 with because there's many other refinements that you don't know. I mean I 03:52-03:55 know. You see in other words, I have to refine you, you'd have to become disciples of 03:55-03:59 mine. I have to tell you 5,000 ways what incarnation really means and what it 03:59-04:05 doesn't mean and all that. And then you could be saved. Very conditional. So is 04:05-04:10 that, so you can Christianize it by using the idea of the incarnation as the 04:10-04:16 source of the secret knowledge, you see, of it, well in this case a general 04:16-04:22 principle that's true that others don't know but you know. Something like that. 04:22-04:52 Also heavily built on the idea of a kind of ladder to heaven. That God is up there, we're down there. And so you have to learn the distance steps and knowledge to get up there so that the incarnation is not really incarnation. Or doesn't really come down. He's come down and given us a clue, but only a secret clue. So that we can climb back up again. Yes, that is a part of certain Gnostic schemes that worked exactly 04:52-04:56 that way. So there's actually levels of being. The real God's up here, then there's 04:56-05:00 another level where the truth comes down and then another level. Then finally you 05:00-05:06 get down to creation level and then that truth finally works its way down and 05:06-05:11 then we, by our growing knowledge, work our way kind of up somehow this 05:11-05:17 ladder of being. So yeah, that is a part of what I know of certain forms of 05:17-05:23 Gnosticism. The other element is that spirit is good, matter is bad. Ah well. We have the 05:23-05:28 divine spark, we are spiritual, so we are akin to God. And so the 05:28-05:32 incarnation of course drives a coach of horses through that. Yes, right. Yeah, it 05:32-05:37 didn't bring up that part. But often the high truth and why it has to be an 05:37-05:43 idea. Okay, see an idea is not a physical thing, right? An idea or ideal or even a 05:43-05:49 doctrine, right? It's a concept. It's an idea. And so that is kind of your 05:49-05:54 first step towards the real and the true and the spiritual because the spiritual 05:54-06:02 is an idea or an ideal of that sort. And so it's a mind, a conceptual thing. 06:02-06:09 And the bodily can get right left behind. So you see in some ways Jesus, 06:09-06:13 well actually I used to think this way myself. If you would ask me many many 06:13-06:17 years ago, "Why did Jesus have to come down?" I said, "Well, he just had to come 06:17-06:23 down so he could tell us, 'Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? I'm here with 06:23-06:29 you.'" That would be the only reason I could think that Christ came. He 06:29-06:33 had to be with us. I suppose I would have said, "Well I guess he had to suffer a lot 06:33-06:37 on the cross." I mean I probably would have added that in. But the main thing I 06:37-06:41 just thought he just had to get down here so he could hear it. See that was 06:41-06:46 kind of a Gnosticism. I didn't know it at the time. 06:46-06:47 Robin. 06:47-06:55 This is probably a hard one of any kind, but you were saying that the Father and the Son are on the cross together. 06:55-07:02 With the Son on the cross. What did you say about that, the words of dereliction? 07:02-07:04 Why have you forsaken me? 07:04-07:07 You wanted to give me an easy one Robin, did you? Thank you. 07:07-07:09 I just guess you must have always thought about it though. 07:09-07:18 Yes, yes. I haven't figured out kind of a, let's say, certainly not a final way, a standard way to address that. 07:18-07:27 But part of what we want to say is what the Son went through, the Father went through with the Son, each in their own way. 07:27-07:36 The Son went through that in his bodily being. He went through it as one of us in our place and on our behalf. 07:36-07:43 But the Father was with him, well we have to say, in his own fatherly way. The Father did not become the Son. 07:43-07:48 The Son did not become the Father, but he was with him. 07:48-07:56 And then you have to say, I think it's proper to say, this creates some controversy, but that the Father had his own kind of suffering. 07:56-08:02 Paid his own kind of price, shared or shared in the Son's price. 08:02-08:07 It was costly in the Father's way. Now, we don't really know what that means. 08:07-08:14 We can't really push, well how is that? No, we are brought in through the Son. 08:14-08:19 So we see his and we say, he's showing us the Father too. He's not just showing us himself. 08:19-08:27 So, but the Father is there with him, they're going through it, they planned it, they brought it about together. 08:27-08:36 And home this comes out in Hebrews what, 9-7? Where the Son offers himself up to the Father in the Spirit. 08:36-08:42 It's put right together in one verse. The whole God is saving us. 08:42-08:47 So we don't actually know about kind of the nature of the Father's suffering, 08:47-08:53 except the Son is showing us something true about what the whole God is involved in. 08:53-08:57 And so, I mean, maybe you've heard sermons about this. 08:57-09:01 There are some who just want to make this as dramatic as they possibly can 09:01-09:08 and take the idea of, "Why have you forgotten me?" 09:08-09:12 to the most extreme notion they could possibly think. 09:12-09:16 Well, the Greek word actually doesn't first of all require that, but it makes it more dramatic. 09:16-09:20 The Father hates the Son. The Father has nothing to do with the Son. 09:20-09:25 The Father, you know, won't look on the Son. These types of things, as if they're alienated from one another, 09:25-09:32 as if they have opposite wills. Of course, if that was true, the whole Trinity would have exploded apart 09:32-09:39 and God would have ceased to be God if they were kind of opposite in that sort of way. 09:39-09:42 The object of the cross, two things, the object of the cross, 09:42-09:49 what is the wrath of God is poured out on the evil that Jesus took on. 09:49-09:57 The object is not the Son. The object is the evil that the Son has now absorbed into himself 09:57-10:02 to be done away with in Him. So God's judgment does come down on Jesus 10:02-10:08 because this is, He has drawn out the evil and so it is judged in Him. 10:08-10:13 But it's not the Son being judged. It's not even the Son exactly being punished. 10:13-10:19 It's the evil being done away with and overcome in the Son. 10:19-10:24 And another angle on it that I think should be brought in in some way is 10:24-10:29 Jesus has now assumed to Himself our experience of God-forsakenness. 10:29-10:35 When sin enters into our life, it draws a curtain between us. 10:35-10:38 Is that to carry this on a river and to carry it further then? 10:38-10:43 Is there a separation at the point of death then of some kind? 10:43-10:46 Or does the Father go down into death with the Son? 10:46-10:50 Well, if you think about it, kind of a total complete separation. 10:50-10:53 See, the problem is the weight you want to put on the separation. 10:53-10:58 If you take it to the extreme, absolute ontological separation, 10:58-11:02 well, Jesus would have ceased to be, God would cease to be and there would be no salvation. 11:02-11:07 If you want to say something, so I don't use the word separation usually. 11:07-11:14 What I say is there is a kind of disruption that the Father and Son receive into themselves 11:14-11:17 in order to do away with the disruption. 11:17-11:21 So it is absorbed, it's taken on, the burden is borne. 11:21-11:25 The cost or the price is paid. 11:25-11:31 So it is taken in rather than Jesus fighting evil with evil and throwing it back. 11:31-11:38 Sometimes the metaphor of He absorbs it into Himself, 11:38-11:45 takes it on inch by inch, step by step so that it's overcome in Him. 11:45-11:50 So I don't use the word separation because people usually think there's some kind of ontological break 11:50-11:54 or an opposition of will or purpose. 11:54-11:57 Jesus wants to save us, the Father's not so sure. 11:57-11:59 You know, things like this. 11:59-12:02 So no, they are one in mind and heart. 12:02-12:05 The Father sent the Son, right? 12:05-12:09 So they're in this together all the way and paying the cost. 12:09-12:11 But there is this kind of absorption. 12:11-12:13 Evil must be judged. 12:13-12:22 God says no to evil so that there will be a day when it will be no more. 12:22-12:24 And it has to be judged. 12:24-12:30 Because God is for us, He has to be totally and completely against that which is against us. 12:30-12:34 If He's not against what's against us, is He really for us? 12:34-12:38 And how intensely does He have to be against what is against us? 12:38-12:44 With the exact same intensity with which He is for us. 12:44-12:48 So His judgment is the judgment of grace and that's why it takes place in Jesus Christ. 12:48-12:51 And not on me, apart from Christ. 12:51-12:54 That would just be the obliteration of me. 12:54-13:01 But God's judgment comes down and casts out the evil, right? 13:01-13:06 And judges it so that it will be no more and rescues us from it. 13:06-13:09 So we are saved from it. The Son is raised up. 13:09-13:14 Evil did not have the power to separate the Father from the Son. 13:14-13:17 But their union remained and was victorious over evil. 13:17-13:21 The evil intended, I think it's okay to put it this way, 13:21-13:26 evil intended to destroy the Trinity. 13:26-13:29 It set its sights on nothing lower than that. 13:29-13:31 Because that would be the only victory. 13:31-13:33 To completely destroy the Trinity. 13:33-13:39 To create a separation between the Father and the Son. 13:39-13:44 That would be the victory of evil over God, over the Trinity. 13:44-13:51 And so I think we see God takes that on, of course, to overcome it. 13:51-13:53 So those would be a few things I'd say about that. 13:53-13:54 But it's a tremendous mystery. 13:54-14:04 Gary, I think at that point, since I don't think anyone could present you with a more difficult question. 14:04-14:08 And since we're coming right up against the time for prayers. 14:08-14:14 And since I see all kinds of faces that register all kinds of thinking. 14:14-14:17 And therefore that we could go on with this for a little half hour. 14:17-14:23 I think we'll temporarily bring the discussion to a close at that point. 14:23-14:25 But please continue to think about that. 14:25-14:28 And Gary will be delighted to receive further questions. 14:28-14:30 I'm here the whole time. 14:30-14:32 Over the next few days. 14:32-14:42 But I want to thank you Gary for your paper and for so masterfully coping with such a question at such a point. 14:42-14:43 So thank you very much. 14:43-14:44 Yes, you're welcome. 14:44-14:54 Now just a couple of minutes before prayers begin at 9 o'clock. 14:54-14:57 Apologies by the way to those who came in on time. 14:57-14:59 Because we started early. 14:59-15:00 You weren't actually late. 15:00-15:05 But we're finished just in time to make sure we get into prayers at 9. 15:05-15:13 So we'll just take a couple of minutes to clear it. 15:13-15:17 I'd like to know if you folks have any more questions. 15:17-15:18 Okay. 15:27-15:29 The handouts you got. 15:29-15:30 Yes. 15:30-15:31 Oh, okay. 15:31-15:35 I have some quotations from Tom's work. 15:35-15:38 So if you want to give them correspondence of what I was talking about. 15:53-15:54 Yes. 16:12-16:13 You got a copy? 16:13-16:15 Yes. 16:15-16:22 There are more copies around. 16:44-16:52 Before we start our evening prayer, part of it is a song. 16:52-16:56 And Chuck is just instructing you what it's all about. 16:56-17:01 Nothing very simple tonight. 17:01-17:05 There will be two verses which is going to be the hymn of tonight. 17:05-17:10 But just go, "Jesus, you are here with us." 17:10-17:13 And the second verse will be, "Jesus, we are here." 17:13-17:16 "We are here with you." 17:16-17:19 But the tune to which you had all sorts of lovely harmonies. 17:19-17:20 Basically. 17:20-17:23 [singing] 17:23-17:24 Sing after me. 17:24-17:42 [singing] 17:42-17:44 Okay, try. Just once without the piano. 17:44-17:45 Make sure you've got it. 17:45-18:03 [singing] 18:03-18:05 An easy part for the men. 18:05-18:21 [singing] 18:21-18:23 Right men, follow my left hand. Everyone sing. 18:23-18:45 [singing] 18:45-18:47 Right, very come to sing it. 18:47-18:49 I'll just remind you of two words, but then enjoy it. 18:49-18:52 And we can keep singing for a bit. 18:52-18:54 Well, thank you very much, Chuck. 18:54-18:59 The song comes after, well, in exactly about six minutes. 18:59-19:20 Jesus says, "Jesus says, 'Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them is like a wise man who built his house on a rock.'" 19:20-19:25 The bold text we speak always together. 19:25-19:30 "Our help is the name of the Lord who made heaven and earth. 19:30-19:37 O God, make speed to save us. O Lord, pace with us." 19:37-19:43 "The Lord is faithful in all his words and he's loyal to all he has made." 19:43-19:51 "The Lord upholds all who fall and raises up all who are bowed down." 19:51-19:53 Together we say the confession. 19:53-20:01 Heavenly Father, we confess that in your righteousness you have made us righteous in Christ. 20:01-20:10 We confess that your forgiveness has freed us from sin and death and brought us to eternal life in Christ. 20:10-20:20 Therefore, accepting that Christ is righteous in our forgiveness, we confess our sins. Amen. 20:20-20:28 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the sky above proclaims his handiwork." 20:28-20:35 "Day to day pours out speech and night to night reveals knowledge." 20:35-20:41 "There is no speech, nor are there words whose voice is not heard." 20:41-20:47 "Their voice goes out through all the earth and their words to the end of the world." 20:47-20:54 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the sky above proclaims his handiwork." 20:54-20:58 "The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul." 20:58-21:04 "This testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simpler." 21:04-21:08 "The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart." 21:08-21:13 "The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes." 21:13-21:20 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the sky above proclaims his handiwork." 21:20-21:24 "The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever." 21:24-21:28 "The rules of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." 21:28-21:34 "More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold." 21:34-21:39 "Sweeter also than honey and trippings of the honeycomb." 21:39-21:46 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the sky above proclaims his handiwork." 21:46-21:54 "Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and shall be forever." 21:54-21:59 I'm reading some verses from Isaiah. 21:59-22:08 Isaiah chapter 40 verses 12 through 14, 28 through 29. 22:08-22:16 "Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens with a span, 22:16-22:23 enclosed the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?" 22:23-22:31 "Who has measured the spirit of the Lord or what man shows him his counsel?" 22:31-22:35 "Whom did he consult and who made him understand?" 22:35-22:42 "Who taught him the path of justice and taught him knowledge and showed him the way of understanding?" 22:42-22:47 "Have you not known? Have you not heard?" 22:47-22:55 "The Lord is the everlasting God, the creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary. 22:55-23:05 His understanding is unsearchable. He gives power to the faint and to him who has no might he increases strength." 23:05-23:09 Thank you. 23:09-23:17 Let us pray. Heavenly Father, you have made us your own in Jesus Christ. 23:17-23:24 We pray in and through and with him to share in his prayer for the church and the world 23:24-23:29 and knowing that he takes our prayer and makes it his own. 23:29-23:33 Lord, in your mercy, hear our prayer. 23:33-23:39 We pray for the church and for our own churches for faithful witness to Christ in his gospel. 23:39-23:44 We pray for the persecuted Christians and for their persecutors. 23:44-23:48 Lord, in your mercy, hear our prayer. 23:48-23:57 And we pray for human society, for right governance and justice, for wisdom and integrity in those in power. 23:57-24:05 And we pray for the poor, the oppressed and the victims of war. Lord, in your mercy, hear our prayer. 24:05-24:13 And we pray for our communities where we live and work, our neighbors, friends, families and young ones. 24:13-24:17 Lord, in your mercy, hear our prayer. 24:17-24:24 Father, we pray for those who suffer in body, mind or spirit and those who care for them. 24:24-24:30 We give thanks for those who have gone before us into the joy of your presence. 24:30-24:35 And with them and the great company of the church in heaven and on earth, we ask, 24:35-24:44 Merciful Father, accept these prayers for the sake of your son, our savior, Jesus Christ. Amen. 24:44-24:51 Jesus, you are here. We are here with you. Jesus, you are here. Jesus, you are here. 24:51-25:12 Jesus, you are here. Jesus, you are here. Jesus, you are here. You are here with us. 25:12-25:13 We are here with you. 25:13-25:19 Jesus, we are here. 25:19-25:24 Jesus, we are here. 25:24-25:29 Jesus, we are here. 25:29-25:32 We are here. 25:32-25:36 We are here. 25:36-25:41 Jesus, you are here. 25:41-25:47 Jesus, you are here. 25:47-25:52 Jesus, you are here. 25:52-25:59 You are here with us. 25:59-26:05 Jesus, we are here. 26:05-26:11 Jesus, we are here. 26:11-26:17 Jesus, we are here. 26:17-26:29 We are here with you. 26:29-26:34 Lord, now let your servant go in peace. 26:34-26:37 Your word has been fulfilled. 26:37-26:44 Our own eyes have seen the salvation which you have prepared in the sight of every people. 26:44-26:53 Light reveal you to the nations and the glory of your people Israel. 26:53-26:56 The Lord bless us and watch over us. 26:56-27:01 The Lord makes his face shine upon us and be gracious to us. 27:01-27:07 The Lord look kindly on us and give us peace. 27:07-27:09 Amen. 27:09-27:12 In peace, we will lie down and sleep. 27:12-27:16 For you alone, Lord, make us dwell in safety. 27:16-27:19 Abide with us, Lord Jesus. 27:19-27:25 For the night is at hand and the day is now past. 27:25-27:31 As the night watch looks for the morning, so do we for you. 27:31-27:32 Amen. 27:32-27:39 Thank you very much, Eker. 27:39-27:52 Just one or two quick announcements. 27:52-28:03 First of all, if you are being in the village, then you need to be here at about 9 o'clock 28:03-28:06 to make your own packed lunch at the end of breakfast. 28:06-28:14 That's part of the David's Theosophy. 28:14-28:23 I hadn't actually spotted it yet, but Jock says that volume two in this series is now 28:23-28:24 out. 28:24-28:26 This was the first one. 28:26-28:35 And volume two is now out, edited by Adam Nye and Todd Spadell. 28:35-28:42 Tom Torrance, the way he used scripture and interpreted scripture, it's his art form about 28:42-28:44 that. 28:44-28:49 And it's probably about half the cost you pay in America. 28:49-28:55 If you do buy any books here, then can you write down your name? 28:55-28:59 It's just good to know who bought them. 28:59-29:02 If you've paid it, can you write down paid? 29:02-29:04 If you owe it, write down owed. 29:04-29:09 I should have said also that those books there are for browsing. 29:09-29:13 In the James Torrance book I mentioned, not The Worship Couldn't Be the Trying God of 29:13-29:19 Grace, there are three books there for sale, but the one on Trinity and Transformation, 29:19-29:28 the one that began life as a special volume of Quasipratio was now published. 29:28-29:30 That's what I want to be browsed as well. 29:30-29:36 The ones here are ones that have been remanded, that I've managed to pick up cheaply and sell 29:36-29:38 for that price, etc. 29:38-29:41 So I got that from Amazon. 29:41-29:44 It's less than £20. 29:44-29:45 So I think that's all. 29:45-29:46 Thanks for everything today. 29:46-29:47 If we write a check for the one, can we have it for Jock? 29:47-29:48 For those books, write it to Hansel Press, please. 29:48-29:49 H-A-M-D-S-E-L, Hansel Press. 29:49-30:07 And the bar is not open, will be. 30:07-30:09 As soon as Rob gets there. 30:09-30:11 And you've been trained? 30:11-30:13 Yes, I've been trained. 30:13-30:19 Is there something about towels for the guests here where I find me one? 30:19-30:21 Yeah, and if you… 30:21-30:28 I said the overseas guests don't need to bring a towel, but I can get you a towel, 30:28-30:31 or if you've forgotten one. 30:31-30:34 Yeah, same as Magruder's.