Firbush Retreats Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush. ----------- June 14, 2018 Firbush Retreat Summer 2018 Q&R https://tftorrance.org/node/1641 The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript. ------------ 00:00-00:07 [Jock Stein] St. Andrew's University, John Burnside, a very well-known contemporary poet, and he 00:07-00:15 said, "God questions the whole basis of a limited, fearful denial of the possibilities 00:15-00:24 that the world offers." Now, he's echoing, of course, McDermott, but I find this an awful 00:24-00:31 thing in the world of poetry and the arts. What can we do about this? 00:31-00:41 [Jeremy Begbie] Live in a way that suggests otherwise, and as far as the arts are concerned, show that 00:41-00:51 the possibilities are far greater within a Christian worldview. Those two things. Another 00:51-01:00 thing is, there wouldn't be Western music in its current form without the Christian 01:00-01:07 faith, without the church. So it can't be all bad. But before, perhaps even all those 01:07-01:14 things, you've just got to admit a horrific problem. In many quarters, not all, but in 01:14-01:19 many quarters, there's been a deep fear of the arts, it's unpredictable, the non-verbal 01:19-01:24 arts are very hard to pin down, particularly music, so there's a kind of fear going on 01:24-01:28 there. But the most powerful counterargument will be a demonstration that things can be 01:28-01:32 different. And of course, gracious conversation with a person like that. 01:32-01:36 I think it's easier in music than in poetry, because... 01:36-01:37 That's probably right, yes. 01:37-01:43 ...the shadow of McDermott and the so-called Scottish Modern Renaissance, and he was utterly 01:43-01:50 scathing about the role that Christians have played in literature and poetry. I mean, he 01:50-01:55 was actually quite outrageous when he said about that. He just denied. He said, 'There's 01:55-02:00 hardly any decent poetry or literature from the Christian church. It was all the classics 02:00-02:02 and the pagans and so on.' 02:02-02:03 Interesting. 02:03-02:04 He's very outspoken. 02:04-02:07 Very interesting. Would others like to comment on that? 02:07-02:13 It's a question, but also in the major support. I traveled pretty much around the world and 02:13-02:19 I was quite fascinated to see how in certain cultures we don't have anything to do with 02:19-02:25 Christianity, especially the history, for example, in Arab countries and also in China. 02:25-02:29 I wouldn't use it for my ear. It's dissonant. 02:29-02:31 Right. It's hard to access. 02:31-02:42 It's hard. So could you say that the Christian worldview, because it's order, creates harmony? 02:42-02:45 I would like to say that. 02:45-02:50 And I think to some extent that's true. I think we have to be slightly careful, because 02:50-02:56 say with Japanese music, for instance, to the Japanese what sounds not dissonant but 02:56-03:01 strange initially to them is extraordinarily beautiful and enriching and I want to take 03:01-03:04 that seriously. I want to take that response seriously. 03:04-03:08 So I think we have to be careful with that judgment. 03:08-03:12 That's where I put it. Not necessarily dismiss it altogether. We need to be proud of our 03:12-03:17 tradition and what the Christian worldview can do for an art form like music, but not 03:17-03:22 deny the possibilities of workings of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit of Christ, in these 03:22-03:25 other situations. 03:25-03:31 A great deal of music. It's an extremely strange first time round. Great Western music, likewise. 03:31-03:35 And that's why we need to help each other. What do you hear in that? What they call the 03:35-03:40 worship words in styles of music. The first question should be asking each other across 03:40-03:44 the motion. What do you hear in that music that I don't hear? Why can you worship through 03:44-03:50 that but I can't? Help me. But the good thing about that, that's a personal appeal. It's 03:50-03:54 not talking about something called style out there. I'm a human being face to face with 03:54-04:00 you. I'm a fellow Christian. You are my brother or sister in Christ. We've got to get on somehow. 04:00-04:06 You help me understand what you get out of Talos or Gibbons or Bird or whatever. I need 04:06-04:11 to find out what you get out of Chris Tomlin or whoever you're talking about as well at 04:11-04:16 the same time. And that's the real meeting of human beings there. And then you will actually 04:16-04:21 hear all sorts of, I believe, hear all sorts of things. It can also be critical in the 04:21-04:25 process but at least there's now a conversation happening rather than just smashing each other 04:25-04:29 with style or just having kind of apartheid as a kind of wall between the two. You have 04:29-04:32 your thing, you'll have your thing and never the twain shall meet. I'm not sure that's 04:32-04:36 really the body of Christ in action. I really don't think so. Confident. 04:36-04:37 Mike? 04:37-04:40 Yeah, this is really an answer to your question. 04:40-04:42 Yeah, please do. Yes. 04:42-04:49 You're about Christian poetry. We were left a box of books by our minister's widow and 04:49-04:53 I picked out Elizabeth Barrett Brown and was blown away. 04:53-04:54 Oh, that's fantastic. 04:54-04:58 She sat there meeting this woman and feeling the faith coming out of her face. 04:58-05:04 Absolutely. Wonderful stuff. Thank you. That's a counter story. That's a counter story. Yeah? 05:04-05:10 I'm wondering if sound just is and it resonates in the way it does. With a kind of tip of 05:10-05:16 the hat to one of your colleagues, Simon Conway Morris, whether or not someone like Fark would 05:16-05:25 eventually come about. If that is the case, what would the music of the future sound like? 05:25-05:31 Wow, that's a good question. I simply don't know the second one. You're getting at the 05:31-05:33 kind of anthropic principle thing, is that right? 05:33-05:34 Along with convergence. 05:34-05:40 The chances, in other words, of, well first of all, of human beings coming through the 05:40-05:47 evolutionary process are, I gather, insofar as being absolutely minuscule. The chances 05:47-05:52 of someone like Bach appearing, so to speak, if we knew all the conditions of the world 05:52-05:57 3,000 years ago or perhaps earlier, a million years ago, the chances are extraordinarily 05:57-06:03 slim. Isn't that interesting? I'd never thought of that, honestly. And you say, therefore 06:03-06:09 what might we say about the future? Not sure we could predict that though, could we? What 06:09-06:10 do you think? What do you think on that? 06:10-06:13 I think something, someone like Bach 06:13-06:14 Will come along again. 06:14-06:22 Well, would have been an inevitability through the way the universe has been set up. I mean, 06:22-06:26 I think if you ask Simon Conway Morris that question, I'd be really interested to see 06:26-06:27 whether or not 06:27-06:29 An inevitability? Would be necessity. 06:29-06:36 Through convergence, he would say that different forms are converging. And I mean music is 06:36-06:38 a constant, the resonance is a resonance. 06:38-06:43 Oh, I see. Sorry, different point. I beg your pardon. Yeah. I've forgotten that was his 06:43-06:46 line on that. I'm afraid I've not discussed that one with him. I've discussed other things 06:46-06:51 with him, but not that particular one. Oh, interesting. I don't know on that. To be discussed, 06:51-06:56 to be thought out. Thank you very much. I have heard he's a bit controversial on that. 06:56-07:00 He's probably not everyone would agree with him. Some common world, he's a, what, evolutionary 07:00-07:07 biologist, professor in Cambridge, very mavericky kind of character, swashbuckling, I call him. 07:07-07:13 Huge, fun, extraordinarily courageous. That is Christian faith. I heard him preach in 07:13-07:17 Trinity College once. They brought him to talk about Darwin. And of course everyone's 07:17-07:22 expecting, you know, huge problems. Poor old Darwin. How could you reconcile it? And he 07:22-07:29 just blew the whole thing away and talked about the resurrection of Jesus. It was fascinating. 07:29-07:35 It was absolutely fascinating. I'm not sure everyone quite knew what to do with it. What's 07:35-07:39 funny, he's, wait a minute, he's an evolutionary biologist at Cambridge. He says, yes, I happen 07:39-07:43 to believe in the resurrection. I happen to believe that the tomb was empty. And I happen 07:43-07:47 to believe Jesus raised from a dead body. Yes, I know, it is extraordinary, isn't it? 07:47-07:52 He's a very, very open biologist. Absolutely wonderful talk. He's a rascal, really. But 07:52-07:57 yeah, there we go. But I must look that up. Thank you for that. I must think about that. 07:57-07:59 Other questions on that? Yes. 08:14-08:20 I'm afraid so. That's what Tom was getting at. I'd be very careful that we don't do a 08:20-08:25 kind of Protestant, you know, against the visual. Tom, you may want to say more about 08:25-08:30 this because you know much more about Tom's line on the visual. But yes, and this is why 08:30-08:36 Luther thought music was favorite amongst all the arts because it's an oral art. And 08:36-08:43 because the word is heard and has to be heard, certainly. Good point. I'll just leave it 08:43-08:52 there. Do you want to dive in with Tom on this? He was very suspicious of over-visualizing, 08:52-08:56 right? Of having visual concepts that would imprison us. Am I right? 08:56-09:02 Yes, well absolutely. Yeah, Hero Israel, the Lord your God is one. And part of, I mean, 09:02-09:09 he used to talk about the visual, usually gives us the idea of surface rather than depth. 09:09-09:20 And it also is also kind of like, if you think telescopic, it's at a distance. Hearing involves 09:20-09:27 receiving, and well, especially he would bring in the personal here, of course. I mean, how 09:27-09:33 do you know, come to know a person? A person is by self-disclosure. So how do you know 09:33-09:38 about the inner life, the significance of a person? If you just look at them and even 09:38-09:44 watch them during the day, you would pick up a few things, but it's not until that person 09:44-09:53 engages and self-discloses the truth and reality, and then you, then of course you believe them, 09:53-09:58 well, or you don't, you receive what they have said. And that's the only way you can 09:58-10:04 come to know deeply profoundly a person. So the personal element comes in here in the 10:04-10:13 hearing and this self-disclosure. And so with that, that's why he gave the privacy to the 10:13-10:20 hearing as compared to the seeing. Yeah, of course I say through language, but actually 10:20-10:27 also the evolutionary evidence is sound on this also through song, as a matter of fact, 10:27-10:32 or through language that is emotionally toned as a kind of singing, already beginning a 10:32-10:36 kind of singing. Yeah, I mean that would be his line. Robert? 10:36-10:46 Yes, it was also that, that Moses said to Israel that when they encountered the fantastic 10:46-10:51 events of Sinai, they saw no form. Yes. They only heard a voice. Yes. 10:51-11:00 And the point about, it's similar to what Gary was saying, when we hear with our eyes 11:00-11:06 we have control, we can look where we want to, but we can't. When we hear it, we have 11:06-11:12 to be partial. Yes. We have to let it come in and let it, and hear it. Yeah. And listen. 11:12-11:21 And it's very hard to listen. Vision in a way is more active. Yeah. Yes, I'm not entirely 11:21-11:26 sure about that. I need to think that through. Okay, yeah. There's certainly a point there, 11:26-11:35 I think, we just got to be very careful of a kind of Protestant denigration of the image 11:35-11:41 as inherently sinful or inherently dangerous, as inherently regarding rejection. I don't 11:41-11:46 think he would say that, I'm not saying that. But it could, we mustn't use that to give 11:46-11:54 us an excuse to do something like that. So. One of the problems with linear perspective, 11:54-12:01 is that our vision is bounded by where we are. That's right. So therefore, that's interesting. 12:01-12:05 So therefore, with this icon, it does not follow a single linear perspective. There's 12:05-12:11 a possibility of breaking out of our own point of view. That's interesting. In relation with 12:11-12:16 others over time. That's interesting. As long as we stay in the realm of linear perspective, 12:16-12:25 it's our own vision, our own point of view. Not a true relation that's open to others. 12:25-12:31 Thank you for that. There's a wonderful book by a man who was an educationalist in Birmingham 12:31-12:38 University called John Hull. It's called, it's called what? Sorry, I can't remember. 12:38-12:45 He talks about the experience of going blind. And he talks about the experience after going 12:45-12:51 blind of sitting in a park bench and realising that the sound was still there whatever way 12:51-12:56 he pointed his head. He wasn't thinking, it's very similar to the point you make. Just such 12:56-13:00 obvious things about sound. In fact, I've used quite a lot of his material in developing 13:00-13:07 this because he suddenly had to think very hard about what was different about sound. 13:07-13:11 And he also talked about simultaneity. That there's a, he said in the park, there's a 13:11-13:14 boy playing over there, there's someone on the swing over there, and there's something 13:14-13:24 there, and they're all together in my space. My sight, they were there, there, there, and 13:24-13:30 they're together. It's kind of obvious. It's of course a very moving book, and he's a strong 13:30-13:34 Christian as well, and a very, very interesting one. I just can't remember the name of the 13:34-13:38 book. Do you know that one? No, sorry, come back at me. 13:38-13:40 No, it was actually a separate one. 13:40-13:41 A separate point. 13:41-13:42 I suppose it's slightly connected. 13:42-13:44 I'm sorry, John. You're meant to be in charge. You'll share. 13:44-13:45 Sorry, mate. 13:45-13:46 I'm glad to. 13:46-13:48 I think it's Peter Donnell's turn. 13:48-13:50 Oh, right. Okay, sorry. Peter. 13:50-14:01 Okay. I'm really enjoying this lecture. I'm certainly obviously just a huge fan of the 14:01-14:07 power of music, and I think so many of these insights are relevant, but I wanted to just 14:07-14:12 push you a little bit just to, again, just to bring out a little bit how to look at what 14:12-14:25 the ... whether we're thinking about music as a bonus gift or a rather wonderful part 14:25-14:35 of that which is given. My question would be coming from ... if I'm thinking about interpenetration, 14:35-14:43 for instance, or sympathetic resonance, although I'm totally with you in your musical narrative, 14:43-14:50 I also find myself, generally speaking, there's a great deal of interpenetration, sympathetic 14:50-14:56 resonance when two people truly give attention to one another, when they actually speak to 14:56-14:57 one another. 14:57-14:58 Lovely. 14:58-14:59 Lovely. 14:59-15:00 It's good. 15:00-15:05 It's good to ask you in an earlier section, just that famous line in Shakespeare about 15:05-15:08 Cassius, "Beware of the bad person who has no music." 15:08-15:09 Yes, he's right. 15:09-15:17 But do we have to be ... just for the sake of argument, do we have to be musical to get 15:17-15:20 the point? Now, thank you very much, indeed. 15:20-15:21 Because ... 15:21-15:22 Vaughan Williams. 15:22-15:25 I'm never going to push music out the door, but I feel sometimes ... 15:25-15:26 Good point. No, very good point. 15:26-15:27 ... for some people in church who ... 15:27-15:28 I know, absolutely. 15:28-15:32 And I, like you said, Robert Bell, gets said to be saying, "I'm not musical." I can say 15:32-15:33 the more actually you are. 15:33-15:34 But ... 15:34-15:35 But ... 15:35-15:36 But ... 15:36-15:37 Nevertheless, people really feel this. 15:37-15:38 Undoubtedly. 15:38-15:42 And if I bang on about the beauty of music, of whatever kind ... 15:42-15:43 Sure. 15:43-15:44 I actually can lose people. 15:44-15:50 Yep, absolutely. Very well said. Yeah, the Cassius line. Vaughan Williams said that in 15:50-15:53 the Serenade to Music, didn't he, do you remember? Yeah. 15:53-15:55 The line? 15:55-16:00 Ah, I can propose that let he be ... oh, it's a great curse against ... 16:00-16:01 I've trusted A. 16:01-16:04 It's that people who don't ... because Luther said something similar. If he doesn't like 16:04-16:10 musicals, not musical, don't trust him. He's kind of less than human. No, this is ridiculous. 16:10-16:15 And when I give these talks, it's very often someone who says, "Yes, actually, I really 16:15-16:20 am not musical," or, "I really know someone who just wouldn't get this," to which I say, 16:20-16:29 "Fine, that's okay." But lots of things I don't get. If this helps unlock these wonders, 16:29-16:38 fantastic. I'm not saying it's necessary. No. I wouldn't ever push it that far. No. 16:38-16:45 The Gospel is necessary. The Gospel is necessary. But it has ... the other part of it, it has, 16:45-16:53 in my experience, in working with this here, it has, I've found, released a lot of people 16:53-16:59 to think ... to imagine the theological world in a very different way. And I'm just trying 16:59-17:05 to say to people, "Look, here's a resource. Now, if you can access it, there are other 17:05-17:10 ways that are more congenial to you, fine, fantastic." And, of course, what's going on 17:10-17:15 there is the giving ... the penitentiary ... yeah, there, there's a kind of musical metaphor, 17:15-17:21 you could say, rather than the concrete practice. The musical metaphor serves, indeed, an extraordinary 17:21-17:27 way of relating to each other that you could find out in other ways. Absolutely fine. I 17:27-17:35 fully agree on that. Last comment, I would say. Nonetheless, those who really are a musical, 17:35-17:42 who aren't able to recognize any sense in music, it's a very tiny percentage. Those 17:42-17:47 who say they're not musical, that's a much higher percentage. And those who have been 17:47-17:53 told early on in their lives that they're not musical, like my dad, for instance, you 17:53-17:57 see, "Sunrise." Because he's moving to music. He loves the Bach Brandenburg Concertos. But 17:57-18:02 he was told ... he was ... classic story ... remember Mr. Hyde? He's a classic story at Watson's. 18:02-18:08 You know, you chuck the boy out the choir at eleven, that's it. And you're shutting 18:08-18:12 off a large part of the experience. Those people ... those people ought to be dropped 18:12-18:19 in a lake of something or other. Because they're really the damaging ones. My own experience 18:19-18:22 at Watson's was you're either good at music or sport. I was told at the age of eleven 18:22-18:27 I was no good at sport. I was always the last to be picked and ... you know that? So I just 18:27-18:31 did the absolute blanket thing that this was ... and everyone told me how important it 18:31-18:36 was and the development of character and strength and all the things I should be benefiting. 18:36-18:41 Of course, because it's necessary to be human, you've got to play sport. And it's only when 18:41-18:45 I had kids, when my son grew up a bit, I started playing football with him. I thought, wait 18:45-18:50 a minute, I'm actually quite good at this. I can get a ball from this part of the garden 18:50-18:56 to that part of the garden with one foot. So that we have to be very careful of people. 18:56-19:00 And one of the joys of doing this kind of work is seeing people who were just convinced 19:00-19:05 they knew they could never understand anything that was going on in music and could never 19:05-19:11 grow in their love of it and could never relate it to anything in their faith. To see people 19:11-19:16 like that open up. It's a wonderful thing. But thank you for the qualification. Thank 19:16-19:19 you very much. So I'm sorry to keep ... 19:19-19:27 I wanted to maybe flip around what you said. Obviously I'm not going to try and interpret 19:27-19:34 it as a political sign. But a picture held as captive. But I think also sound. 19:34-19:35 Absolutely. Absolutely. 19:35-19:41 And particularly in the world in which we live in today. And this is how special the 19:41-19:45 Trinitarian space is. We go around, we were bombarded. 19:45-19:46 Absolutely. 19:46-19:48 And a point you made yesterday. 19:48-19:49 Surrounded. 19:49-19:50 We don't have eyelids. 19:50-19:51 Brilliant. 19:51-19:52 We have eyelids. 19:52-19:53 I love it. 19:53-19:57 We can't actually say no unless we do this. 19:57-20:03 Brilliant. Which is why tomorrow morning I'm doing lecture five. It's called music held 20:03-20:09 as captive. Don't worry. But you know, actually you may have a point there in the sense that 20:09-20:16 I'd really ought to develop then the counter side to that. Would you believe music is used 20:16-20:20 as a means of torture? I mean in Kuntana Bay Bay, that was all ... it was happening along 20:20-20:24 with the waterboarding and all the rest of it. That is just they blare people with music 20:24-20:30 24 hours a day. Day after day. Week after week. Can you imagine? Or another sinister 20:30-20:35 way of doing it of course is when you use music for propaganda. And lots of people use 20:35-20:41 it very very seriously because they could capture an audience such that they actually 20:41-20:46 had to respond in a particular way. This is manipulation through music. Which is a profound 20:46-20:49 danger. And sometimes in worship as well. 20:49-20:53 So that's when it becomes that caption. Thank you very much. That's an extremely important 20:53-20:57 thing. I've exalted the great things you can do with music. Music can be deeply harmful 20:57-21:03 if we're not careful. And in a culture which we're surrounded by it, we can't set it up. 21:03-21:08 It's affecting us in ways that we don't often realise. We need to be aware of that and not 21:08-21:10 naive. Sorry? 21:10-21:15 There's something about ... sometimes music in church can be very beautiful, very well 21:15-21:16 done. It's a performance. 21:16-21:18 But then what? I know. Exactly. 21:18-21:21 It's a performance. And there's something that you, the beauty shows, with your love 21:21-21:26 of it, is hearing the silence between the notes. 21:26-21:27 Yeah. 21:27-21:31 If you make some music. You're so caught up in the notes. Oh I like this bit, I don't 21:31-21:32 like that bit. 21:32-21:33 Yeah. 21:33-21:38 But it's actually embracing silence between the notes, between the space. And that seems 21:38-21:46 to be the example for life too. Particularly with multi-dimensional, multi-relationships. 21:46-21:49 So you actually can give each other the space. 21:49-21:51 Yes, that's good. 21:51-21:57 There's something about it, rather than me imposing my ideas or my music or my anything. 21:57-21:58 Very interesting. 21:58-22:05 It's about space, that music, you've shown that very clearly. That's what brings it emotionally 22:05-22:06 alive to us. 22:06-22:10 And what do you think that means, practically for worship, does that mean that we shouldn't 22:10-22:13 be having music the whole time? What do you think that means, practically? 22:13-22:17 Well, it depends how the music is. I mean, it's performed by, I can just imagine how 22:17-22:21 you would be, but sometimes I find in our church, it is a performance and it doesn't 22:21-22:27 feel right in church. It's not worship. Worship is being silent sometimes, and I think quiet 22:27-22:31 prayers, then some music, but it has to, the love has to be there. 22:31-22:35 That's a very good point. It's a very good point. 22:35-22:40 King's College Chapel is just round the corner, from where I live. My son was in the choir 22:40-22:45 at King's for three years. I didn't go that often, but obviously when your boy's in, you 22:45-22:47 go, "Hey, come on, you've got to be there." 22:47-22:54 One thing I noticed, people say, "Oh, that's just a performance," right? And it is staggeringly 22:54-22:55 good. Okay. 22:55-23:03 Well, actually, after worshiping there very often, I found it extraordinary liberating. 23:03-23:07 And one of the reasons was because there was a great deal of silence or respectful pauses. 23:07-23:13 Stephen Clearbury, it's one of the best things about it. When is the reading? See, most quadrants 23:13-23:17 say, "Hey, come on, let's get on with the music. It's a boring reading." He just stops. 23:17-23:26 Then we stop for 15 seconds, and then he slowly gets up and crouches and moves in like that. 23:26-23:32 And same with the liturgy as well. So he just allows you room, and he does it after the 23:32-23:37 music as well. He just allows you. It's almost as if he's saying after the music, "You don't 23:37-23:42 have to think this way. Just over to you now, over to you." 23:42-23:50 I do get worried when, do you get this in your churches? I sometimes, actually you get 23:50-23:56 it after sermons, don't you? If you preach and you end with perhaps something quite quiet 23:56-24:00 or a biblical text you think is quite moving or just something to kind of, you want this 24:00-24:04 to sort of sink, you want to give it time. And someone gets, "Well, now we're going to 24:04-24:11 say the Creed is over." Shut up. Just give it time. It's a fear of silence thing again. 24:11-24:17 Because it, and that, then the Spirit, I find at that point, the Holy Spirit, whoa, hey, 24:17-24:23 all sorts of things can happen then. Just, just let it sink. In a way that when you're 24:23-24:29 performing music, you would, between movements of a symphony, would try, yeah, that's it. 24:29-24:35 That's it. That's it. And that's just a terribly, terribly easy thing. When I was in Texas for 24:35-24:39 the first time, any Texans here, I'm going to be careful what I say, I love Texans. But, 24:39-24:46 whoa, the Episcopal Church in Texas, I took conflict for it. And I paused a lot. I mean, 24:46-24:50 like after a little reading or whatever and the prayer and whatever. And we got to the 24:50-24:54 end and I just held the silence. And then just because it was kind of natural. And I 24:54-25:00 got heaps of complaints. You say, "Why did you keep stopping? We've got to say this 25:00-25:07 liturgy. The liturgy needs to be said." I'm so sorry. And it's the same with the Eucharistic 25:07-25:12 prayer or whatever. I'm all for post-communion of the Eucharistic prayer. I'm speaking my 25:12-25:19 own tradition here now. You know, people have received, they go back. Now we go, just change. 25:19-25:24 Shut up, shut up. Just let it sink. Don't worry about the football game or any of the 25:24-25:29 little things you've got to go to. You've met with the Lord in a very powerful way, 25:29-25:34 I think, I sense. Just let it go. And then sometimes, if I'm presiding, I would naturally 25:34-25:40 then, shall we offer some prayers or name in silence or allow someone very much now 25:40-25:44 being brought. I think you don't have to be wild charismatic or anything to do that. 25:44-25:50 It's just humanity, isn't it? Right? Thanks for your point. Integration of silence and 25:50-25:54 music. The best performers know how to do that. The best musical performers, paradoxically, 25:54-25:59 you see, actually know how to do that. The worst just say, "Here I am." 25:59-26:09 The way you outline space, the difference between thinking about God in terms of space, 26:09-26:15 God's space and our space, the more God means less of us. Tom Florence made exactly the 26:15-26:21 same point over and over again. He used to say, "All of God does not mean nothing of 26:21-26:26 man." That's right. That's not some of God, some of man. He said, "All of God means all 26:26-26:31 of man." Isn't that wonderful? Calbot has a great bit. I think it's in one of the small 26:31-26:36 print sections when he says, "I'm sometimes accused of saying that God is everything and 26:36-26:41 therefore we are nothing." He's got some phrase that this is absolute complete and monstrous 26:41-26:46 nonsense. But you see, that's the caricature of God. You're exalting God. That will, of 26:46-26:52 course, mean the denigration of humanity. That's not the point. But if you think this 26:52-26:58 way, it is very quickly the point. Of course, the trouble is we have to use spatial metaphors. 26:58-27:03 We have to. Heaven or not, the Bible's full of spatial metaphors. The question is how 27:03-27:09 are we going to interpret those and have we other forms of spatial experience that will 27:09-27:13 help release, so to speak, what scripture I believe is really trying to say and that 27:13-27:17 we don't therefore make a whole lot of problems for ourselves, unnecessarily problems. I think 27:17-27:22 Tom saw that. I do regret I never had a chance to speak about music with him. Very much so. 27:22-27:27 Here we are. Jock, we've got to eat. We've got to eat. No, that's fine. Let's eat. 27:27-27:33 It's our fast reading. But you've got to have Sherry and all that sort of stuff. 27:33-27:39 Just follow that up. Tom Torrance used to say that we have to move from a receptacle 27:39-27:45 notion of spatial time to relational note. And as you were talking, I was thinking, what 27:45-27:49 would that look like if you were trying to picture it or would you just go straight to 27:49-27:53 sound with that? I think you do. I think we have to speak. His point was surely, wasn't 27:53-28:01 it? Oh, sorry. Am I off now, Gary? No. No. Oh, because I've taken it off. Never mind. 28:01-28:06 That his point was right that you don't think of just space and then what's in it. You're 28:06-28:13 speaking about the space of God, the space of the created world. That's relational space, 28:13-28:18 of course. So you don't think of them inhabiting the same space. Therefore, when we use language 28:18-28:24 of both, we have to respect the space of the way we're using spatial language of each. 28:24-28:35 That was an eye-opener for me. But then I hope the whole model is relational through 28:35-28:41 and through, isn't it? From beginning to end. Music is never about solitary and solitary 28:41-28:47 agents who may then decide to do something else. Music tones are always set in motion 28:47-28:52 by something or someone else and they set others in motion. I mean, it's an extraordinary 28:52-28:56 phenomenon there that's going on. Okay, anyone feeling they just haven't had a chance to 28:56-29:01 ask a question? Can you ask a question? There'll be time later tonight, I think, tomorrow morning 29:01-29:07 as well. Oh, yes. Yeah, they're fine. Okay, I'm going to suggest that for a grace, for 29:07-29:13 the meal, we might sing something. Yeah. And I suppose we could sing something in three 29:13-29:20 verses, just so that we nod in the direction of Trinity. I'm going to suggest we take an 29:20-29:26 old song, a tazzy song, which goes like this. Bless the Lord my soul and bless his holy 29:26-29:33 name. Bless the Lord my soul. And we'll use us rather than me, the cotton sun with me. 29:33-29:41 He rescues us from death and then verse two is he leads us into life and verse three is 29:41-29:51 he feeds us day by day. Are you all familiar with the tune? I think we'll do a bit lower 29:51-30:02 tonight. Do you all know that? Okay, well, we'll just do it and bring in parts as we 30:02-30:11 go through it if you're able. Okay. So bless the Lord my soul. Bless the Lord my soul and 30:11-30:30 bless his holy name. Bless the Lord my soul. He rescues us from death. Bless the Lord my 30:30-30:51 soul. And bless his holy name. Bless the Lord my soul. He leads us into life. Bless the 30:51-31:16 Lord my soul. And bless his holy name. Bless the Lord my soul. He feeds us day by day. 31:16-31:21 Amen. Thanks Jeremy. 31:21-31:35 Have you got announcements? No, we just make our way across.