Firbush Retreats Firbush retreats are organized and led by Robert T. Walker. Firbush retreats are designed to make the best theology accessible to as many people as possible and especially those not trained in theology and often not familiar with routine technical terms. They combine times of worship and prayer with reflection on a theme related to Torrance theology. For more information see https://tftorrance.org/firbush. ----------- June 13, 2018 Firbush Retreat Summer 2018 Robert T. Walker, Q&R https://tftorrance.org/node/1641 The audio recording for this presentation is available on the Firbush Retreat section of the website for the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. The following AI transcript is too rough to rely upon, but perhaps useful for word searches and time-stamps. It is unretouched; if anyone wishes to listen to it and clean it up we will be happy to post an improved version (contact the webmasters). We invite speakers to send us slides for their talks, which we will post alongside the audios and transcripts. If any speaker wishes to have their talk removed from the website, just let us know and we'll take down both the audio and the transcript. ------------ 00:00-00:06 You said there was no connection between us and God, that we are made out of nothing. 00:06-00:13 Well, where does that leave the teaching of Genesis 1 that we are made in God's image? 00:13-00:22 I said there is no connection other than that we are brought into being by Him. 00:22-00:26 There is no inherent connection, also said. 00:26-00:31 But is that not a connection given us in the creation? 00:31-00:42 Well, I said in a different sense. Obviously we are made to reflect God, 00:42-00:51 but that's very, very different from... there's no definite mode of connection. 00:51-00:58 There's no hot wire, there's nothing to connect us other than the fact that we've been brought into being by His love, 00:58-01:07 so that we, as creatures, most definitely do reflect what God is at His level. 01:07-01:17 And therefore, because God is a speaking, eloquent God, we have been made as speaking, eloquent creatures. 01:17-01:27 But we cannot reason for that to God, because there's no connection there. We can't cross the gap. 01:27-01:34 OK, now if we can have it another way, how would you understand the relevance of us being made in God's image? 01:34-01:44 That we are made to reflect at our level something, a lot, of what He is. 01:44-01:50 And so that as He is faithful to us, so are we faithful to one another. 01:50-01:53 As He loves, so are we to love. 01:53-02:03 But there's no inherent... it's a different level, and there's nothing between us. 02:03-02:13 So we cannot move from our side to God's side. We cannot stand back and see God and us. 02:13-02:20 There's no independent viewpoint. We can only think from inside the physical world. 02:20-02:25 But from inside the physical world, God makes Himself known to us. 02:25-02:35 And so we know God, and we are lifted above what we could otherwise know, but we still remain creaturely. 02:35-02:44 And we only know that we do reflect Him because we come to know what He is. 02:44-02:53 Good question. 02:53-02:57 Just to extend that question, I don't know if this is what Doc is asking. 02:57-03:04 It's partly about what it means that we are human as opposed to another sort of creature. 03:04-03:14 I think your paper is implying that the answer to that is not that it's in being human that we're special, 03:14-03:24 but it's rather that in God becoming human that we fully understand where that specialness resides. 03:24-03:38 And the danger of such a stark line as you were at points offering is that there's nothing to uphold humanity's gift in Christ 03:38-03:46 as opposed to a love dog's and trees, but it's not quite the same. 03:46-03:55 Well, we are special. We are very much part of the physical creation. 03:55-04:01 And so this juxtaposition ought to make us aware of our kinship with everything else and our care for the creation. 04:01-04:07 At the same time, we are at the apex of the creation. 04:07-04:19 We are the point in creation where creation can give voice to praise of its Creator. 04:19-04:23 We are the kind of mouthpiece of the creation. 04:28-04:40 One of the reasons that Darwin appeared to be such a threat was that we had this spiritualistic view of man, of humankind. 04:40-04:49 If we'd been more biblical, we wouldn't have worried if we were descended from monkeys. 04:49-04:52 Two yes? 04:52-05:03 I was just trying to make sense of this, but I'm not of the illusion. So you're basically saying that the whole of creation doesn't have a connection with God by virtue of the fact that it's been created by him, 05:03-05:06 but it's only because Christ was human. 05:06-05:15 No, I said there's no connection to him other than the fact that he was brought into being out of nothing, and it's maintained in him by him after nothing. 05:15-05:23 So that's the connection. It's held in being by God. 05:23-05:29 But also, as we learned from the New Testament, all things hold together in Christ. 05:29-05:36 So even in creation, everything held together in Christ, well, in the Word, in the eternal Word. 05:36-05:38 Does that answer your question? 05:38-05:39 I don't know yet. 05:39-05:42 OK, come back to me later then. 05:42-05:56 The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground, that's the mirror, and breathed into him, into his nostrils, the breath of life. 05:56-06:03 Is that not an element of spiritual? 06:03-06:16 Because he created all the animals before, they had life, but this is different, it seems to me that the breath of life is more an element of Holy Spirit. 06:16-06:22 No, it's simply physical breath. It's like Ezekiel 37 speaks of... 06:22-06:27 The animals didn't breathe life into them, they just created them. 06:27-06:39 But they were living, so they had breath. He makes Adam out of the dust, and then he breathes in from the breath of life, and it becomes a living nefesh. 06:39-06:47 I think Ecclesiastes is like all the other nefesh, in other words, the animals. 06:47-06:51 Yeah, I mean animals too in the Bible have nefeshes. 06:51-06:57 Is a living nefesh one of the current? 06:57-07:06 So I mean nefesh in the Bible, I've been through every single instance in the Old Testament of the Hebrew nefesh, and it's very, very striking. 07:06-07:13 I mean, Samson holds the pillows and says, "Let me die", and the Hebrew is, "Let my nefesh die". 07:13-07:15 Yeah, Gary? 07:15-07:31 I think one of the challenges in thinking this through is thinking in terms of objects or things, either being joined physically or separate physically. 07:31-07:45 Where what we have, it seems to me, adds up to, it's a dynamic actual relationship that has to take place by God's choosing, by God's willing to interact with that which is not God. 07:45-08:01 Essentially if God didn't interact with it, there would be no connection, but the connection is relational, not like spatial or ontological, you know, the beings of God. 08:01-08:13 So I mean, one of the ways Karl Barth dealt with this problem that we're talking about is he said, "Even when God gives his life, we do not then possess it, control it. 08:13-08:31 We sovereign over it." So in that sense, you can kind of be the beneficiary of something or other, the Spirit, the life, but you do not possess it and control it and become Lord over it and set up the conditions of the relationship. 08:31-08:51 So, but if you think, you know, the Spirit of the life is a thing that God has it, then he gives it to us, and now I possess it. You see, that's one way, but what if it's a living, dynamic interaction that has to be maintained moment by moment by moment by will, by choice, by grace? 08:51-09:12 Then I think this helps us get out of the trap, we're a little bit in, do we have it or don't we have it? So this is, to think dynamic, relational interaction, is how human beings have the benefits of God rather than as a possession. 09:12-09:25 Agreed very much. I mean, because in our Western culture we've had such, we've taken on so much of the Greek view of the soul as an immaterial thing. 09:25-09:38 When we initially feel that's a threat to us, we've lost something of us, but actually it's hugely liberating to realize we are purely physical. 09:38-09:47 It does not in the least mean we don't know God any less. As purely physical beings, we can't know God. 09:47-09:56 The physical as it's such is physical, atoms, the very nature of the physical world is unbelievably complex. 09:56-10:16 As physical beings, through God we can know God while remaining physical. So ditching the concept of a spirit as a separate thing actually frees us to enjoy what we are in our weakness and frailty, with all our warts and our aging, etc. 10:16-10:26 And because God loves us as such. 10:26-10:46 Questioner 1. Could I ask, how would you understand on the resurrection evening when Jesus breathed a loop on the disciples and said, 'receive the Holy Spirit'? 10:46-10:58 Would you see a parallel between that and the creative act in Genesis, or in fact what we have in Ezekiel? Would you see those in parallel in any way? 10:58-11:23 Questioner 2. In Romans 8, the Spirit bears witness with our spirit, that we are sons of God. There seems to be, in the Romans passage, there seems to be some distinction being made there, but I just wondered if there's two bits how you do that. 11:23-11:33 That's a very good question. I puzzled a bit about how come Christ is giving the Spirit there when the Spirit doesn't come to all acts. 11:33-11:58 I can only think that this is a symbolic thing that Jesus is doing, as a sign of what would happen. 11:58-12:15 In Genesis, it's simply breathing a physical breath. What the Spirit does is to breathe the breath. The Spirit doesn't breathe himself into us. 12:15-12:32 What he breathes into us is the risen life of Christ, the risen human life that we come to partake in Christ's risen life. That's entirely creaturely, Christ's risen life. 12:32-12:48 In Romans 5, if we've been saved by his death, how much more will we be saved by his life, i.e. by his risen life? Christ, in the garden, he prayed in agony. 12:48-13:11 The passage about the Spirit bearing witness, or praying with groans for us, to me is an echo of that. The same Spirit through whom Christ did everything in the flesh is now doing it with us, working things out in us. 13:11-13:25 A Christ as man did everything as man through the power of the Spirit. When the Spirit works in us, the Spirit doesn't make us divine. That's very important. 13:25-13:33 Without confusion, change also works there. The Spirit is divine, and it's only through the Spirit we can know God. 13:33-13:44 But the Spirit works in such a way that we don't know how, but what we do is our action, and yet it's through the Spirit. 13:44-13:54 We find ourselves coming to believe, coming to love in a way we couldn't otherwise, coming to have faith. It's the gift of God. It's through the Spirit. 13:54-13:57 Have I answered your question? 13:57-14:02 I'm not sure. 14:02-14:06 Let someone else ask this. 14:06-14:23 To carry on from that, really, I know that spirituality isn't in the Bible, but there's still a faith. If the Spirit breathed the living sight of Christ into us, surely there is a divine spark through all of us. 14:23-14:39 We're not divine beings, we are creature beings. But this kind of cuts off to your anti-spirituality. It sounds quite ignoring, this Spirit being Ruach, the breath of God being breathed into us. 14:39-14:45 So there is a divine spark through us, but we certainly wouldn't call ourselves divine beings. 14:45-15:01 Well, when it says 'any divine spark', Ruach is simply the Hebrew for 'wind' or 'breath'. Well, wind basically. And nefesh is more the breath. 15:01-15:24 But again, going back to what he made in the image of God, although it's a different level, there's still a feel that we're ignoring the Holy Spirit quite honestly. And Christ, that was a comforter with us forever. And sometimes I feel we're choosing not to give that credence much more. 15:24-15:36 In Greek thought, like can only be known by like. You can only know God if you yourself are part of God, or have a spark of God. 15:36-15:47 Like can only be known by like, by something like it. But the miracle is that we are totally unlike God in the sense that we're physical. 15:47-16:01 But that is not the least obstacle to knowing God. In fact, it's only through being thoroughly physical that we do know God, because we know in creaturely language in our world, in our reality. 16:01-16:21 And it's only when we emphatically deny the lie of this devil, 'you shall be like God', deny attempting to become spirit in the way that God is spirit, that we can really come to know God and appreciate us as mortal creatures. 16:21-16:35 So we're not losing anything by giving up our so-called immaterial souls. We're actually discovering ourselves as what we are, in all our creaturely physicality. 16:35-16:40 In Christ, he became flesh. 16:40-16:52 (Inaudible) 16:52-16:53 Agreed. 16:53-17:08 I saw my father just two or three minutes after he died. I know enough about death and biochemistry to know things were still happening in every one of his cells and all that's been happening, but I remember vividly what I said to my mother. 17:08-17:27 He's away, but why was he away? It's a bit like you're struggling here with getting the computer wired up here. The dynamic is the flow of God's Holy Spirit released through Jesus into us. 17:27-17:46 And that flow back, remember when we're powered up, there's a red line and a black line or whatever it is, and a blue line and a brown line. And there is that dynamic, the flow of God's Spirit through us, which when we die is removed. 17:46-18:05 And that to me explains what a truly fully human person is, is someone through whom the life of Christ, as Jesus said, I in you and you in me, the life of Christ flowing through us. Dynamic. Thank you. 18:05-18:22 I'd put it slightly differently to that. I'm not sure about this language of flowing, but certainly we are... 18:22-18:36 I think the most faithful way to interpret what the New Testament speaks about Spirit is that when we know God and not before, then we are spiritual. 18:36-19:00 We don't have a spirit as such. But when we know God, even though we are physical and creaturely, then we become spirit, not in the sense of ceasing to be physical or being changed in any way, but somehow we are made open to what is beyond us. 19:00-19:06 And that to me is what the New Testament means by spirit. 19:06-19:31 When we are born or created, we have within us an uncharged battery, but it's a rechargeable one. Some people will never have that battery charged. Others will come to know God and plug in, and that battery becomes charged, and therefore we then have a life which is in a different dimension from what it was before. 19:31-19:41 It's not charged with the life of God. It's charged with genuine human life that only Christ was able to live and fulfil. 19:41-19:47 We'll need to leave it there, I'm afraid, but we could go on long enough. 19:47-20:04 Thank you very much for your questions. We've now got Guy McGregor. Give us a short presentation. 20:04-20:08 And there's a real bonus for us that carries here.